Trial Balloon

Here, Lassie!

Posted at 4:34 AM on April 2, 2009 by Dale Connelly (45 Comments)


A few days ago, Jenny asked an interesting question on a Trial Balloon post:
"Anyone else have a strange pet; or at least one they had unrealistic expectations for? "
Jenny described having bantam chickens and trying to train one to jump over a stick. This led to some trick chicken videos, courtesy of Mark.

It takes patience to train a chicken. And it takes patience to watch them, too.
But if you have a trick chicken in your life, you go to all the demonstrations at the center for Poultry Performance Arts and you sit on the hard bleachers clutching your little camera because you love them and you want to be supportive.
That's part of the deal.

The other part is naming them. Here, our pets and children are at our mercy.
Amy had a chicken named Peeps. Sherrilee mentioned having mice, all named Omar, after Omar Sharif. Barbara in Robbinsdale's family had rats, named Smokey and Cloudy.

These seem like appropriate names, but how can one know? Is a pet's name it's destiny? Would Lassie have been happier as Ginger? Not so charming as Booger? More responsive as Rocket? Less effective as Cassandra?

"Cassandra, go tell mom & dad my leg is caught between two fallen boulders and the Army Corps of Engineers just pulled the switch up at the new dam to flood the valley with water! And tell them to believe you this time!"

Sometimes a name grows out of a characteristic the animal possesses, such as my earliest remembered childhood pet, a black dog named Inky. Some pets carry names related to their pedigree, like our St. Bernard, pictured here sitting on my lap when I was a teenager.

Dale and Trinka 1970 small.jpg

Her name was Katrinka von Galliano. Why?
Galliano was her mother's name. Katrinka? I don't know where that came from. My father decided she was German. Or Swiss. And maybe she was, but the one thing we know for sure - she was heavy.

So, how have you named your pets? Is there a democratic mechanism involved? Does someone in the family become "name czar"? Do you simply step outside and pick a moniker based on what you see? Or is it more mysterious than that?


Comments (45)

Good Morning RH-
When my grandson, Brohde, was about 4 we hatched some eggs in an incubator. One of them was a magnificent black and white speckled rooster with an iridescent green tail. He misunderstood me when I said he was speckled and called him Sparkle(Sparky, for short).

Posted by Julie | April 2, 2009 5:50 AM


My family got our first Irish Setter when I was a kid(I'm a serial Irish Setter owner...) and her official name was Irish Calleen. We decided as a family to call her Callie. Unfortunately within just a few days we realized that having a dog named Callie in the same household with a girl named Sally (my younger sister) was not going to work out very well. So for some reason that passes understanding, we decided to call the dog "Irish". Doesn't make sense, but she kept the name until the end of her life. (Irish Setters since then have been Scarlett, Tristan and Rhiannon. Samoyeds have been Sorcha, Baron & Thorin.)

Posted by sherrilee | April 2, 2009 5:56 AM


oh dear, this will be long but then i'll keep quiet :-)i think i am the namer because i have such fun devising the perfect name for an animal
our cat names:
Skygge (shadow pa Norsk) a grey kitty, now departed
Julius (La Rosa) an orange kitty
Bubba - a big-boned guy we got from the pound to keep J company
Goats:
naming a registered goat is a little more complicated (and there can't be duplicates). first, one has to register one's farm name with the American Dairy Goat Assoc. the first word in the goat's name is the breeder's farm name. after that most folks have a system - i don't. Alba's name is "MeadowWild B Sogni Alba" - our farm name, B for Braeburn her sire, Sogni because her dam is Dream and i want all of Dream's kids to have some kind of reference to that, and finally Alba, the name we will call her. Sogni Alba (very loosely translated by us :-) means "Dream at Dawn" (Alba was born last March in the early, minus 26 morning.)
All of Alba's doelings will have a name ending in "a" - this year i think "MeadowWild W Luna" but will hold "Crema" as well. but if Dodger has a doe this year, with the sire "Wayne" we will call her "MeadowWild Tammy Waynette" and Dodger's buckling could be "Artful" but this may all change when we see the kids, their colors, and get to know their personalities.
9 days for Dodger and 16 for Alba - maybe i'll post pictures and ask for suggestions......
and i'll quit before i get into the 29 chickens.

Posted by Barb in Blackhoof | April 2, 2009 6:23 AM


I raised three turkeys, they were called Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. And, yes, they did fulfill their named destiny.

Now we have two newfoundlands. Since they are large and water dogs, one is called Nessie and the other is Keto-named after the goddess of whales, sharks and large sea monsters.

One cat we named Noc. Which has two meanings, one she showed up at our barn pregnant, and the other stands for "Not our cat". But she has lived with us for a year now.

Posted by Robin | April 2, 2009 6:30 AM


Barb - love hearing about the goat naming system. It's similar for purebreed dogs - and usually you get the breeder name and a litter name which you get to tack something onto. My earlier dogs had AKC names that had nothing to do w/ the names I called them. And I picked names that sounded like romance novels (Courtwood Golden Rendezvous & Millcreek Snowbound Destiny). Current furry beasts are rescue dogs, so no fancy dancy names (Rhiannon and Thorin).

Hope all your Heartlanders out there see some sun today!

Posted by sherrilee | April 2, 2009 6:37 AM


Initials....Kamba the niniature schnauzer named after the 3 kids in the family Karyn, Marc, and Beth-Ann. Few years later we gave her half-sister to my grandparents by then the twins had come along. Skammba with Stacey and Marlyss included. After grandma died Skammba came to live with us. Not a good idea to have dogs with rhyming names especially when one dog comes to every name said in the "dog calling voice" and the other responds to nothing.

Dale, is there any chance we can hear "A You're Adorable" in honor of my dogs?

Have a great day that starts with T

Posted by Beth-Ann | April 2, 2009 6:42 AM


Great stories, everyone!
Barb, I'm impressed with your devotion to proper goat-naming and am looking forward to the April arrivals.
Beth-Ann, I'm not familiar with the song "A You're Adorable". Who does it?

Posted by Dale Connelly | April 2, 2009 6:51 AM


Good Morning!

Back when I was training dogs in obedience and agility we had a collection of pooches and naming was always a long drawn out process. Do you try to have the call name related to the registered name or somehow describing the dog? I left that world a few years back and only have one dog left but he is quite the pooch. His name is Ajax, named after the downhill skiing mountain in Aspen CO. I just posted about him on my blog mostly to show the video of him 'helping' me shovel snow. I still have fun training him but not for performance. Now it's just things like walking up the stairs backwards, climbing trees and jumping up on retaining walls when we are out on our walks.

I SEE BLUE SKY!!!!!!!

Have a great day everyone!

Posted by Mark | April 2, 2009 7:17 AM


Good Morning...now here is a subject I can get into and never climb out of...but I'll do just the ones I can remember...:-)

Goats:
Snow (white goat)
Prima (first goat born on farm)
Chicago and Scandal (twins: one with White Sox, the other with Black Sox) (not by me but baseball loving ex-husband)
Calico (for her color)
Victor/Victoria (twins)

Dogs:
Tinker Bell (small black terrier/poodle who came with a bell attached to her collar)
Mixer (unknown background of mixed parentage)
Hannibal (Great Pyrenees destined to rule the neighborhood...named by Robert Bly)
Rumpole (Great Pyrenees named after the PBS series who turned out to be the neighborhood thief...is that what a lawyer/solicitor is?)
Jacques Brel (Schapendoes whose registered name is J K which morphed into Jackie which brought to mind the Jacques Brel song...and further morphed into Jacques Brel is alive and well and living in Mahtowa. He was a rescue dog who had been born in France...he is still with me, but sadly is old, deaf and his voice is no "Jacques Brel")

Horses:
Kermit (barn name for a registered Trakehner which turned out to be perfect because at 25 he is still "green")
Fineen (Trakehner born the year we went to Ireland and we needed an F name to follow that tradition of naming with the same initial letter as the dam)
Marzipan (for an almond colored foal who would turn white as she aged)

I don't name chickens and mostly I call the cats after their color. I once heard a Viet Nam folk tale that ends with "Cat" is the perfect name for a cat...and then there is the Cats/TS Eliot theory that cats name themselves.

Dale, what a fun question to ask...! Brings up all sorts of history and makes me smile after having computer issues that made me crabby.

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 7:18 AM


off topic, but every time you play "City of Immigrants" i hear "City of Democrats" - in fact it took looking at the playlist to find out i was mistaken :-) there's a word for that jumbling or mistaking lyrics... Mark? Kay H? Cynthia? all of you with such great memories?
i also thought that the Neil Diamond song was "Solid Citizen" instead of "Solitary Man"
might be a fun topic someday - lyrics one has heard vs. the actual.
sorry to interrupt the really neat name theme. please continue....

Posted by Barb in Blackhoof | April 2, 2009 7:22 AM


Mornin' All,

Keeping things sort and simple... At one time I raised 26 (surviving) chicks which each became a chicken with a letter of the alphabet name. I tried to commit them to the stew pot in alphabetic order but that didn't work out.

Dale, thanks for the James Taylor/Mark O'Connor song. One can never listen to too much of either of those fine gentlemen.

Posted by Kathy in Wisconsin | April 2, 2009 7:25 AM


Dogs Muttley and Fancy - names very descriptive of their personalities.
Just had to mention that yesterday evening I saw a bright, beautiful turquoise-and-rose Eastern bluebird looking for a place to nest. Like watching a jewel in flight!

Posted by Teri in Zimmerman | April 2, 2009 7:30 AM


Growing up with six brothers and a sister we had a Dalmatian dog we so creatively named Spot, but we called him "Spot in the Underwear" because of the location of a very large mark and thought we were so darn funny. Sometimes my oldest brother would give us rides in a little trailer (it was a bit crowded in there)pulled behind the Cub Cadet lawn mower while we sang the jingle for the Yellow Pages over and over.(I think that was another day's discussion)

Posted by Deb T | April 2, 2009 7:31 AM


Good Morning!

I submitted this about ten minutes ago with a link to my dog video and it went into the "...held for blog owner approval" bucket from which they never return so I am posting this again without the link. You can still get to the video on my blog by clicking on my name. Sorry if it ends up a duplicate...

Back when I was training dogs in obedience and agility we had a collection of pooches and naming was always a long drawn out process. Do you try to have the call name related to the registered name or somehow describing the dog? I left that world a few years back and only have one dog left but he is quite the pooch. His name is Ajax, named after the downhill skiing mountain in Aspen CO. I just posted about him on my blog mostly to show the video of him 'helping' me shovel snow. I still have fun training him but not for performance. Now it's just things like walking up the stairs backwards, climbing trees and jumping up on retaining walls when we are out on our walks.

I SEE BLUE SKY!!!!!!!

Have a great day everyone!

...and since I'm reposting...
Barb - Perhaps you are thinking of dyslexia as folks often call it that but that's technically not correct. I just call it old age....

Posted by Mark | April 2, 2009 7:31 AM


We had a cat that we called Tiger. We didn't know that this name would relate to his behavior when we named him, but it did. Tiger liked to bite people.
My daughter also has a cat that likes to bite.

We think Tiger and my daughter's cat are both from a cat that lived at the local hardware store. Apparently hareware store cats can be a little like junk yard dogs, you have watch out for them.

Posted by Jim | April 2, 2009 7:32 AM


Barb...I don't know what you call it, but I suffer the same malady...why am I trying to learn to listen to Norwegian by listening to music?

I did want to add to my previous post an off-topic comment...that I am having my first cup of coffee in the Morning Show 25 year celebration mug. And it is doing an excellent job of keeping it warm between my posts.

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 7:39 AM


(I'll go back to my cup of coffee in a moment, honest)

Speaking of naming cats...do you have time for a tune from "Cats"? Isn't there one about just a task?

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 7:41 AM


Thanks for the Frankie Lane! We grew up listening to the "Hell Bent for Leather" LP. My kids have been indocrinated as well. Wild Goose is a favorite so I love the Klezmatics take on it.

In our house we name pets after movie characters; Mattie after Mattie Ross in True Grit, Emmit after the older brother in Silverado, Gizmo after the gremlin, Josie after Josie and the Pussy Cats, Trinity from the Matrix, Jake from Big Jake.

I have to say that Lassie has had a negative affect on my pet satisfaction. I have never had a dog that was even 1/8 as helpful and intellegent and because my expectations were so high (blame Lassie) I really end up calling them all Little Dummy - no matter what the name. Cats on the other hand are always exactly as I expect.

Posted by Carla | April 2, 2009 8:07 AM


The bantam chickens were named Salt and Pepper, and the rooster Eggbert. Pepper I decided was the smart one and who I attempted to somewhat futilely train. We also more recently had a cat named Rumpole who seemed to go by the nickname Grumpy ( more like She Who Must Be Obeyed would have been) and at time he gently lived up to the name. That is the problem with names, they come with expectation. Current cat is Sophie of whom we have no expectations.

PS isn't Robbie Burns birthday coming up? shouldn't we have a blast of bagpipes for Jim Ed, or at least Jean Redpath. Hmmm I like the name Jean Redpath, would she be offended if someone named a pet after her?
Jenny

Posted by jenny | April 2, 2009 8:14 AM


The naming of pets conversation reminds me of this snippet from the movie "Logan's Run" - the old man character played by Peter Ustinov paraphrases the following from T.S. Eliot's 'Practical Book of Cats":

"You know, they've each got three names. Yes. The naming of cats is a difficult matter, It's just not one of your holiday games; You may think at first that I am mad as a hatter, When I tell you that each cat's got three different names. See, they got their ordinary name and then they got their fancy name. And that makes two names, doesn't it? And now it's got a third name. Can either of you two guess what that third name is? (beat) Come on! (beat) Above and beyond, there's one name that's left over, and this is the name you never will guess. The name that no human research can discover, but the cat itself knows, and never will confess."

The names we've given our cats:
Ruby
Bill
Lydia

Billy and Lydia got their names when the Humane Society was fostering them. We saw no need to change their names that we gave them. They've still got their fancy name, and the name they'll not confess.

Posted by Mike in Albert Lea | April 2, 2009 8:30 AM


When you live on a farm with small children - you name it - we named it. We named cows, sheep, goats, dogs, cats and the donkey. The donkey was Francis. Francis had the run of the place. He chased the kids around the house playing tag and would walked them to the school bus. There were days I would look out the window and he would be leading a parade of two white goats and a pig out to pasture. His best trick was to stick his head in the open window of any vehicle parked in the yard. Imagine the surprised farmer glancing over his shoulder to see Francis staring back at him.

Posted by becky | April 2, 2009 8:30 AM


Jenny...Robbie Burns Day is January 25...but I think bagpipes are always a good way to welcome any day.

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 8:31 AM


so cool, Becky! you gave a vivid image to this grey day! thanks everyone - really fun discussion

Posted by Barb in Blackhoof | April 2, 2009 8:42 AM


Good Sunny Morning,

We have a male Airedale named McGee—named for Agatha McGee, the Catholic school teacher/principal in Jon Hassler’s novels and Travis McGee, the private eye/beach bum in John D. MacDonald’s novels.

The first book McGee tried to eat was “Winnie the Pooh;” the second book was “The Oxford History of the American People.” Today is McGee’s fourth birthday. As a treat, he and his older, smaller sister, Lulu—a wire fox terrier—had a bit of leftover chicken, partly to distract him from books and as a tip of the hat to Heartlanders.

Posted by Sue | April 2, 2009 8:49 AM


Regarding the mishearing of words/phrases, I think what you're looking for is the following, per Wikipedia:

A mondegreen is the mishearing or misinterpretation of a phrase, typically a standardized phrase such as a line in a poem or a lyric in a song, due to near homophony, in a way that yields a new meaning to the phrase.[1][2] It should not be confused with Soramimis, which are songs that produce different meanings than those originally intended, when interpreted in another language.

My hubby Alex had a modegreen desk calendar a few years ago that had great incorrect song phrases-one that is still posted here is from the Go-Go's song "Our Lips Are Sealed" which someone had misheard as "Alex the Seal".

Posted by Amy in St Paul | April 2, 2009 8:52 AM


For a while we had parakeets, who we named after Shakespearean characters. There was MacDuff, who was very young when we acquired him, and so was from his mother's nest untimely ripped. He was followed by Caesar, whose cage, of course, was Caesar's Palace. Caesar was also diagnosed by the vet as a "compulsive water drinker," another story ...

Dogs were named after places we had lived or visited. Chelsea was named after the city in Massachusetts. Ugly city, beautiful dog, and somehow "Somerville" didn't seem to work. Cabot was named after the Cabot Trail in Nova Scotia, which was the only place name on Cape Breton we could easily pronounce.

We're currently petless, except for fish, whom we refuse to name.

Posted by Don in West St. Paul | April 2, 2009 8:55 AM


On the subject of pet names, we have tried to go with pet personality characteristics if we can, yet the dog books we found have usually said to find names ending in the i, ie, or y sound as dogs respond better to that. Am inclined to think that's silly at this point.
Dogs while growing up were named Thunder (springer spaniel mix) and Rusty(collie-shepherd mix) and Jenny (dachshund) and dogs we've had as adults were Maggie(collie mix we dicided she looked like a Maggie) and now Lexi (a yellow lab mix named b/c our son was very into Billy Joel at the time and it was a derivative of the BJ song "Downeaster Alexa", since she rarely stays put for long.

Posted by Amy in St Paul | April 2, 2009 8:58 AM


Amy - YES!! - mondegreen indeed! thank you, thank you!

Posted by Barb in Blackhoof | April 2, 2009 9:04 AM


Barb, I call it "creative hearing" - when I hear something different from what is said or sung. It makes life interesting and becomes good conversation fodder; not to mention, creating an alternate belief system. I like your suggestion for it to be a topic sometime for Trial Balloon.

Posted by Gail in Wisconsin | April 2, 2009 9:06 AM


i had just seen the westminster dog show when i picked out my black cat at the humane society, so her full name is The Princess Raven Philomina of Midnight, but i call her Mina.

ha ha, love the idea re misheard lyrics....my sister and i, while in our twenties, once discovered we had the same mondegreen re a famous christmas song:

up on the rooftop reindeer paws

( i know, it doesn't make sense, and it's supposed to be up on the rooftop, reindeer pause----)

we laughed hysterically to discover we had the same mind twist--

Posted by Kay H | April 2, 2009 9:06 AM


Sue -- I'm glad to know that I don't have the only book-eating pooch. This is an unfortunate problem at our house, as we're great readers here. Thorin (named after the King of the Elves, Thorin Oakenshielf in The Hobbit) seems to prefer library books over store-bought books... it's getting a bit spendy, as he has managed to get his teeth on four of them over the past two years!

Posted by sherrilee | April 2, 2009 9:28 AM


Kay - thank you for giving me the word of the day - "mondegreen". It was neat to Google it, and also learn "oronym" and "homophone". That could be today's odyssey through the internet, if I didn't have a big budget to work on...

Would these be good names for pets? They hear something different from what is said? Sounds like a kitty cat I know!

Posted by Gail in Wisconsin | April 2, 2009 9:36 AM


The hairball (cat) is Olivia, the kid (child) is Cooper and the chickens have names like caciottore, fettucine, country fried, kiev, mcnugget.....

The funniest animals we have had were guinea hens. What characters!

Thanks for the great music. It makes my day.

Posted by Katie | April 2, 2009 9:39 AM


Mondegreen, yes!

I guess I didn't hear the question right the first time...

Posted by Mark | April 2, 2009 9:54 AM


When we were children, all of our cats were named Kitty. There were eight of us, and we never could agree on a name (and my mother could only take so much of us fighting about a name).

We never had more than one cat at a time, but I don't know that would have made a difference if we had had two at a time.

Posted by Kris in Minneapolis | April 2, 2009 10:32 AM


Perfeect topic for today---Lamb 1 and Lamb 2 born this morning. They will be named First Ewe lamb and Young Ewe lamb---pretty creative, huh? Becomes more exciting as lambing season progresses and there are a dozen lambs. All of our young stock go nameless---more or less.
There has been more exciting, descriptive names like Red Bull, Big Bull, Little Bull. Good Sow, No-good Sow (we'll give her a few chances to redeem herself---if she does, the name sticks. If she doesn't it's "bye'bye.)"

All of our dogs are cast-offs, arriving with other's imposed names.

But what is it with horse names? Every time I buy a horse it has some less than desireable name. I mean naming a horse "Lucky"---that's just asking for trouble. Our current big Percherons came with the lovely names of ---get this---"Tom and Jerry."
1600 lb Percherons named after a cartoon mouse and cat?

How are folk's experiences with changing animal names? Do they stick? Does the animal come when called?

Posted by Bob from Anoka | April 2, 2009 11:02 AM


Bob -- CONGRATULATIONS on the new lambs this morning! We've been waiting for Barb's baby goats and now we have baby lamb (lammettes?) while we wait.

I've changed a dog name... my current rescue dog (big white Samoyed) came with the name Angel and the nickname Aingey (rhymes w/ mangey). I just couldn't do it. So my daughter and I were looking up some Ukrainian or Russian names and accidently were reminded of Thorin in The Hobbit. It didn't take him long (w/ the liberal application of dog treats) to figure it out. After almost two years, it's going just fine. Although as a Sammy, if he doesn't feel like it, he doesn't respond to ANYTHING!

I think you should go for the name change with gusto!

Posted by shelikins | April 2, 2009 11:11 AM


Mark, I love your snow chasing Border Collie video. What a hoot.

I think changing the dog/horse/whatever's name works just fine...the dog figures it out, the horse doesn't care, nor do the whatever's...I had a horse trained in Germany who responded to English commands just fine...so, is it the word or the tone of voice?

Pigs...I had four of them one year. Named one Peter Porkchop...I loved those pigs.
Such characters, couldn't do it again because I hated to butcher them. But ate them just fine...tasty, raised on barley, goat milk and pasture. Loved the way they got up in the morning and made their beds with hay and twigs...and finally a block of salt (3 little pig story anyone?).

And let me add my congratulations on the lambikins! Such a lovely time of year.

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 11:50 AM


When we were growing up, we had boxers. Since they were of German descent, we called the first one Frau, the second one Frau Frau (passed on at a very young age) and then the last one was called Gladys. The old female names of long ago has stuck, as my mother has had 2 pugs, one named Grace, the other Millicent, or Millificent, I can't recall, but is always called Millie. Also a French Bulldog names Rosie. I had a Shih Tzu who had a hair style like Steve Nicks, so I called her Nikki. One of my sisters named one of her mutts Phydeau (pro: Fido). She also adopted a husky mix that decided to park himself in her garage one day, and almost got killed many times, so she called him Lucky, of course. My current lab's name is Willy, named after his sire, and my exhubby's Grandfather. Nothing spectacular, but lovable.

Posted by Jennifer in St. Louis Park | April 2, 2009 12:07 PM


Mike in Albert Lea - How did you remember the whole Logan's run quote??? We just rented that again recently - fun movie. There's no sci fi like old sci fi!

Posted by Carla | April 2, 2009 12:32 PM


For our family pets, originality was key: for the brown German shorthair - Brownie; for the calico tabby cat - Tabby; for Tabby's offspring, a cute little puuddy tat - Puddy; for the calico horse - Calico (Joe); for the French poodle - Pierre (Frenchie was ruled at, as we're French-Canadian).

Posted by Michael in St. Paul | April 2, 2009 1:04 PM


When I was a kid, we had a grey tabby cat named Hilda-- she must've been neurotic or something. She was a full grown cat and she would ride around on the back of our sheep named Henry. She would knead his wool and nurse on his wool-- like she was still a kitten. Then when she had kittens of her own, she would always hide them. When we finally found them, we discovered she had this strange habit of chewing their ears off. It didn't hurt them-- but they looked like koala bears running around. We also had another cat named Rudolph who used to tiptoe past people-- like he thought he was invisible. Then if you "saw" him-- by calling him or petting him, he would scowel at you like you had just blow his really good cover. Anyway-- fun to remember these pets!

Posted by Nick in Wanamingo | April 2, 2009 1:12 PM


Carla - actually I just googled 'Logan's Run cats' and found the following Wikiquote with it:

Wikiquote Logan's Run

But that's been one of my favorite sci-fi movies and always remember the scene with Peter Ustinov and the cats - was my first exposure to T.S. Eliot's work on the matter, more than six years before Andrew Lloyd Webber staged "Cats".

Posted by Mike in Albert Lea | April 2, 2009 1:40 PM


Try again...

Wikiquote Logan's Run


Posted by Mike in Albert Lea | April 2, 2009 2:12 PM


Did anyone else hear Terry Gross on Fresh Air last night talking to the author of "One Nation Under Dog" -- about we Americans and our obsession with our pets.
Is today's Trial Balloon testament to his thesis?

Interesting conversation if you have time.

Posted by cynthia in mahtowa | April 2, 2009 2:38 PM


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