Should we change place names that don't fit with modern values?
Posted at 5:00 AM on June 16, 2011
by Eric Ringham
(42 Comments)
Filed under: Culture, Religion/Ethics
A Minneapolis history buff is campaigning to change the name of Lake Calhoun because its namesake, Vice President John Calhoun, was a proponent of slavery. Today's Question: Should we change place names that don't fit with modern values?
Comments (42)
Whose 'modern' values are we talking about here? Sounds like a question that is shaped by the normalization of whiteness - the 'standard', if you will. Who gets to interpret and document history?
I am pretty damn sure that there have been people fighting against slavery since slavery has existed...
Yes, we should change place names that don't fit with modern values. We should include former place names as well as part of a historical record. Remember, most lakes and rivers in Minnesota (and many other parts of the world) had names given to them by people who lived there prior to naming.
History is great, yet some people of European descent sure like to skew things their way.
Since when was opposing slavery a "modern" value?
On the other hand, suestuben, it does remind us more thoughtful folk that such hatred and ignorance is out there. It would be easy for MPR fans to forget that.
Could you please not post the most hateful of these comments? For instance, all the 'zionist' comments, and people who refer to black or indian Americans as 'them', or someone writing about Obama who uses the well-known racist term 'shiftless.'
This column started out as a great idea but has become abhorrent, with the majority of writers simply exercising their perceived right to spew hatred and ignorance. Please get a thoughtful, non-partisan, educated individual to sort through the responses and post those who show more than hatred and stupidity.
I seldom read or post to this column because of it's obscene tone. If it continues to go downhill it would be best if MPR retires this attempt at free speech. Thanks for giving this idea some cogent thought.
We already have a problem forgetting our past, so no, I'm not in favor of changing the names of places for any reason.
Floyd, you cannot be serious. America became the strongest nation in the world without slavery. And even if the continuation of slavery would have made America even stronger, it certainly would not have made America better. The idea that "property rights" outweigh basic human rights has been rightly cast on the dustheap of history.
On second thought, you probably could be serious. Right-wing wacko-ism does seem to be rising today, to the point where such an idea might actually come to the surface of the political cesspool. At least Washington and Jefferson realized that slavery was something that should come to an end, even though they could see that it was not politically achievable in their lifetimes.
Calhoun was a great American. He defended his principles. Had he prevailed, and the American West opend to slavery, we sould have a stronger country, today. Slavery would have died out by the 1920s through natural causes. We might still be a segregated county, today, but that would be a small price to pay to the protection of property rights which are so lacking now.
No, what a waste of money. The cost in changing a name alone should make this question ridiculous. Please recall the cost the state incurred when the airports went from Lindberg and Humphrey to 1 and 2, has that helped anyone learn to read their ticket before they leave the house?! Ridiculous!!!
NO.
History is history leave it alone.
I sure as heck don't want to be from the State of Pawlenty in the country United States of Reagan! Because 50.00000000001% want to change the name.
Things change get over it!
Man oh man what are we coming to?
Cheers,
Steve
NO.
History is history leave it alone.
I sure as heck don't want to be from the State of Pawlenty in the country United States of Reagan! Because 50.00000000001% want to change the name.
Things change get over it!
Man oh man what are we coming to?
Cheers,
Steve
NO.
History is history leave it alone.
I sure as heck don't want to be from the State of Pawlenty in the country United States of Reagan! Because 50.00000000001% want to change the name.
Things change get over it!
Man oh man what are we coming to?
Cheers,
Steve
Oh sure, let's do that. Can't you just visualize the new level in culture wars as this group and that group petitions or otherwise agitates to have their particular ax ground?
Who gets these ideas, anyway?
Didn't Washington and other founding fathers have slaves? It would be an interesting and bad choice to start renaming so many things because of our current philosophy. It is a form of re-writng history. The Russians were good at that. I agree that if someone is generally flat out evil, we should think about this. I would hesitate to take my daughter to "Hitler Park", but we are looking at a slippery slope. Point is, a number of great (in some ways) people had ideas that were common at the time but we (rightfully) find offensive now. I trust that our children will be able to differentiate the good aspects of character from the bad.
No
Is there room here for a simple "No"?
I think that the Zionist’s are not represented in Minnesota so let’s name the Lakes and Parks after Israeli dual citizens that are currently or have been in government. For example let’s name Lake Nakomis after say Michael Chertoff ex-Homeland Security Head Security, he’s a Zionist, he created the Patriot Act. And what about Deputy Defense Secretary (Former) – Paul Wolfowitz or Chairman Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Richard Perle and don’t forget about our favorite warmonger duel citizen Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board – Henry Kissinger.
The list goes on and on: http://salonesoterica.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/dual-us-israeli-citizens-running-american-government/
We should rename geographical features sparsely and not on a whim. Senator Calhoun, however, was an evil person promoting slavery as "positive good". If enough person find it offensive to honor him with a lake name still, we should change the name of the lake, preferably back to name it had before, which was likely White Earth Lake. Until the change, we can use the name Calhoun to teach our children that evil sometimes gets rewarded in life.
How many people, prior to this news splash, even knew who Calhoun was? And, while we're at it ... who's Lk. Harriet named for? Is Clinton Ave. (Mpls) for the president? Dayton Ave (StPl) for the current Governor?
As long as it's not something offensive - but then, who's being offended? I'd go for the "as long as it's not grossly offensive". e.g. Lake Yid is right out, as would be any racial/social epithet.
Can we get back to empty posturing about the moral self-righteousness of the 1st grad behavior demonstrated by the legislature's inability to share while playing nicely with others?
While it's impossible to do this on anything more than a case-by-case basis, changing Calhoun to something less offensive is the right thing to do here.
Calhoun was not simply a man of his period, who was a victim to another system of morality - many in his lifetime recognized the evil of slavery and called on leaders to end it, but rather than joining in or at least passively supporting slavery, Calhoun was the most vocal advocate of chattel slavery of the 19th century. Were the lake named after someone less passionately pro-slavery, the naming issue might be more complicated, but Calhoun was and is known above all else for his support for slavery. As such, it is important to understand that, to African-Americans in the area, the lake name is a direct affront to their sense of integration into the wider community. Sensitivity may get blasted as "too PC" these days, but it's a real, living issue for a large part of the local community and ought to be emphasized in the debate.
By the same token, cities, counties, and schools in the South ought not to glorify slaveowners from the Confederacy. That there's a lack of motivation to do so there is an impetus as far as I can see to have a better moral and historical perspective with our own place names.
Only in the case where the monument's namesake was chosen for the purpose of promoting that person's symbolism of some offensive viewpoint. While I don't know much about Mr Calhoun, I suspect the lake was not named after him to promote slavery. Indeed, I suspect, his position on slavery wasn't extraordinary during that period of history.
If we were to name lakes, parks, buildings, etc. only for perfect people, we'd have to name everything "Jesus Christ."
Sell the naming rights, CF? Enron Field provides a cautionary tale for that idea.
If we applied the rule equally, we'd also rename everything named for slave owners like Washington & Jefferson. Similarly, Columbus is blamed for the genocide of North American native peoples, so we can wipe his name from maps too. I imagine we can find fault with everyone who's on the 'hero' list. Lindbergh is being redacted for his nazi sympathies. Why not purge MLK too, for the alleged plagiarism in pursuit of his doctorate?
Or perhaps we can overlook the faults of those who otherwise made positive contributions to our society and the world, knowing that nobody's perfect & that standards of acceptable behaviors change.
If this be the case we would be changing names constantly and not know what to call anything. Especially if the changing of names was based on the current trends of "modern values". Considering that "modern" is a reference for only the here and now, modernity is never static. The rotary-dial telephone was once modern wasn't it?
Then we have to determine what "modern values" are and who decides. Homosexuality and abortion are perfect examples of this. We humans are incapable of defining values because we keep changing the rules, thus rendering the concept of values or ethics (as we try to define them) irrelevant. Only one greater than ourselves can define values.
As for that lake name that started this whole thing, let's sell corporate naming rights. This may help solve the budget deficit and settle the issue once and for all. We have Target Field and Target Center, why not Lake Target?
If it was cheap and didn't incur too many problems I would say yes. But at least bringing issues to light, like who Calhoun was, gives people something to think about.
I'm sure most people had no idea who Calhoun was let alone what his views on slavery were. Therefore I don't think we're perpetuating any inadvertent racist thinking by retaining the name of the lake. And I definitively don't think changing the name would improve anything in the current state of race relations.
I think it is impractical to change the name at this point. I would rather leave it and use it as an opportunity for education.
As a side note:
I would hope that those discussing the change could show respect and empathy for each other as this discussion continues.
If a place was called, "Lake Slavery," I would consider changing it.
If a place is called, "Lake Calhoun," then no, changing the name is a huge waste of time for everyone involved.
Tea Party=John Birch Society
Really?
So, if you can't make a valid argument on the topic you throw out something like that?
Why is Mr. Shiftless getting so much press? Did it occur to anyone that the reason the lake was named in honor of Calhoun was because while he was the secretary of war he ordered the army to do a land survey of what would become Ft. Snelling? There's a Yiddish word used to describe people like John Winters, hmm, let me see now, oh yeah - PUTZ!
The idea that the push to rename Lake Calhoun is a political ploy to distract "sheeple" from "real issues" like the economy is one of those paranoid conspiracy theories that are too common these days. If we think the economy is so critical that nothing else matters, we have lost our soul.
This push didn't come from any politician or partisan activist or media personality in search of ratings. It came from a retired software engineer who knows his history and was bothered by the fact that a lake name honors a prominent pro-slavery politician. In fact, Calhoun was one of those who argued for slavery by warning that ending it would be, yes, bad for the economy.
This is the kind of personal initiative conservatives are supposed to be all in favor of. It's an authentic grass-roots movement, unlike the Tea Party astroturf.
as a strident conservative I velieve that once we name something we should leave it that way. Make the Tea Party retake the John Birch Society name!
Dumb question.
Stay on topic.
∑
DTOM
The US and state economies are close to collapsing and this is something that should be considered?
Zionists control our media, this is a good example of blowing smoke, get sheepole to think about something stupid and a waste of resources.
You make a good point Rich. This PC crap is a sliding scale at best. Best to stick with the historical significance.
Who's values are the values of this moment in time?
Absolutely! Pigs Eye is now Palin's Eye. Minnesota is now Michelesota, the state of "Give me Liberty or give me a clue or a book or a camera to pose before. Paynesville is now Pawlentyville...aka Palookaville...
Give money to tornado victims or change the name of a lake?
Hire more cops or change the name of the lake?
Make sure past employees get their pension or change the name of the lake?
Fill potholes or change the name of the lake?
Plow the streets so emergency vehicles can make it down the street or change the name of the lake?
With no LGA money, I just can't see it being a huge priority at this time.
Surely you understand the difference between a history book and naming a place in honor of a historical figure. You're just being inflammatory, right?
I don't think we should rush to rename anything, anytime. When enough people agree it should be done, it will happen. This is called democracy. (you'll find it in any unburned history books)
That said, we should listen to those who find it offensive, to understand if there is truly a deeper meaning to their issue. Every historical figure has a dark side. While I don't endorse his views in any way, I can understand why a statesman & politician would defend the economic engine of his time - we do it to this day, no matter how it ends up oppressing others. 100 years from now, we may choose to see JFK or MLK in a different light - and again, we should continue the conversation about their airports and boulevards.....
This is how evolution & enlightenment works.....when we come to a greater, deeper understanding, we do what we can to correct our wrongs, and move on.
Hiram, now that is funny. Well done!
Maybe, as part of an overall budget deal.
Sure we should. Why don't we burn all the history books while we are at it! All this PC stuff makes me sick.
Everyone who was wronged just needs to get over it. Oh wait, there isn't a black person or Native American alive today who went through slavery or the Native American persecution. So....what's their problem again.
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