What's the best way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute?
Posted at 5:00 AM on May 24, 2011
by Eric Ringham
(36 Comments)
Filed under: International affairs, Politics/Government
President Obama says he wants to resume work on a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. He favors a two-state solution drawn roughly along the lines of Israel's 1967 borders. Today's Question: What's the best way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute?
Comments (36)
Dear Steve the C -
My use of "leaning" was a bit of the old tongue-in-cheek.
As for Jack and his "leanings", Goldman isn't exactly a name that one associates with leprechauns and Guinness, now, is it.
As a half a "heeb" myself, I have complicated feelings about Israel, but ultimately I'm against any theocracy, unless of course The Flying Spaghetti monster can declare his own nation state. ( I vote for Costa Rica.)
Regarding anti-semitism, by strict definition, some "arabs" are indeed semites, but then there's denotations and there's connotations,
and as my favorite semite war criminal Hank Kissinger once said, "Sometimes the appearance of reality is more important than reality itself".
:-)
about the only way to solve this problem is to have an earth quake that separates all of Israel as an island nation. I really don't care where the border is, but ... that would pretty much limit their constant redefinition of what land is theirs. Plus as an island nation ... way more beach front property! Hoo Rah,
Jim, I would not say he was "leaning." He had dove in headlong and was wallowing in it. And is it technically "anti-semitism" if one hates Jews but not Arabs, since Arabs are also traditionally considered semites?
Jack Goldman indicated a leaning towards anti-semitism, but not racism, until he self-declared himself as a racist.
The distinction is complicated in this case because of the debate as to whether the Jews are a race, a culture, practitioners of a religion, or a combination therein.
As to whether or not we are all racists/bigots, there's a nice little test:
Honestly, gut reaction - how would you feel about your mother/sister/daughter sleeping with a (fill in the blank).
I would argue that fortunately the current generation appears to have fewer biases based on fear and ignorance.
"I expect everyone to act in their own best self interest. That is what cynics believe."
No, Jack. That would be the modern misunderstanding of what cynics believe. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynic. You're also working with a nonstandard definition of racism. Racism is the ideology that one's own race is superior to others and should be privileged, not simply a feeling of loyalty to one's own genetic strain (although that's problematic, too). And if you really believe that "All people are racists with secret agendas to invade, kill ways of life, steal, and lie for loot," that says a lot about you. I've known plenty of counterexamples that disprove your assertion. I agree that everyone has a selfish streak, but most folks I know would not agree that selfishness is inherently good. There's a distinction to be made between what is and what should be.
Dear Steve the cynic. Let's not name call. Let's define terms.
A racist is someone who favors their grandparents, their parents, them self, their children, and their family, over others. I would dare say you are a racist and all people in the world are racists. Get over yourself.
I am a racist. I am offended when foreigners are born elsewhere, and come to America to steal my job, my children, my wife, my family, my money, my infrastructure built by my parents and grand parents. The Palestinians are also racists and want their land back.
I love racists. Why? All people are racists with secret agendas to invade, kill ways of life, steal, and lie for loot. You are a racist. I am a racist. Everyone is a racist. Get over yourself. The purpose of racism is to get unequal income. Affirmative action is legal racism in America. Racism is the legal and official policy of the United States which is why they fund and finance Hebrew racism in Israel.
I am also a cynic which I am not sure you are. I expect everyone to act in their own best self interest. That is what cynics believe. The Nazis and Zionists want the same thing, more money for their group with less work. South Africa and Israelis want the same thing, someone else to do the hard sweaty work while I have a latte. Humans are racists. Humans are cynics. Humans do not negotiate in good faith. The Nazis didn't. The Zionists don't.
Like Shakespeare said, "A pox on both your houses". And Steve, thank you for the compliment of calling me a racist. I am proud of my race, my skin color, my opinions, and I love others who are racists also. God Bless racists, even the Zionists and Nazis, who have every right to be racists.
Since no one else seems to want to say it, I will: Jack Goldman, you're a racist. The Nazis lost. Get over it. And btw, Arabs are semites, too.
To all: It does no good for Americans to
demonize either side. On balance, what's been done to the Jews down through the centuries, and what the Palestinians are now doing to the Israelis, is worse than what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians. That by no means excuses the Israeli mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs, but we need to keep things in perspective. Yes, the settlements are in violation of international law, and so is the terrorism with which the Palestinians respond. Both sides are in the wrong, and both sides will have to repent before peace can be achieved.
One major obstacle to America's being an honest broker is the hypocrisy that's necessarily involved if we tell anyone they have to give back the land they took, since our whole country was more or less stolen from the native peoples.
This is a silly question, inasmuch as what people believe what should happen, never will. A two state solution is untenable due to 60 some years of ethnic cleansing and empowerment of a "terrorist state", Eisenhower's label not mine. What will happen is much more interesting.
Israel will not budge as the moderates will emigrate as they have been doing. Violence will continue. While the history of Palestine is much like the ethnic cleansing of the American Indians, it's very different due to a much larger displaced population and a nuclear armed group of crazies (Israelis) being surrounded in an unfriendly neighborhood.
I believe as Israel proceeds into a Pariah State and violence continues, emigration will continue and unless the crazies bring about Armageddon, as Dr. Juan Cole hypothesizes, demographics will result in a state much like Lebanon, where the empowered elite will be a minority and the country will either sink into civil war or, hopefully, join the civilized world as a secular pluralistic state.
Until this process completes, Palestinians and the United States will be the big losers.
If anything has been learned in the past 60 years, it's that tribal and religious states result in eternal war.
Hebrews are notorious for taking things that are not theirs in middle man deals with no risk. Hebrews are also notorious for creating intentional confusion.
Semites, Jews, Jewish, Hebrews, Zionists, and Israels are areas of land mines of confusion to get the money, always the law suits, always the wars, always the money.
Double standards cloud issues dealing with Hebrews and they like it that way. End the subsidies. That is the only way to get real about Occupied Palestine. Why double standards for Nazis and Zionists, South Africa and Israel?
Where is rule of law? America was attacked on 9/11/2001 for it's double standards being the sole global supporter of the failed Zionist welfare state of Israel.
Cut the aid. Cut the cash. That is the only way. Israel takes three billion a year from Americans and spends one billion buying our own Congress, owned by AIPAC, the Israeli lobby. I am ashamed of the groveling spineless politicians. America should take back the 1.6 Trillion dollars fat lazy Zionist Israelis have legally stolen from America. We are $14 Trillion in debt and we have money for Israeli Zionists?
Cut the cash. Get some spine Congress. We are so screwed.
I wonder if it can, that is if they are allowed to stay on the land.
Each claims a heritage of the land.
Maybe this is why there is that commandment about idol worship, a little bit of a stretch, but its the message, not the place or person or trinkets...
I would almost be of the mind set of putting a concrete wall all around the Israel/Palastine board collectively, move the people out, and fill it with concrete.
Then put up a BIG HONKIN sign: Do not trespass.
In every imaginable language.
When children fight over a common toy, a parent often has to take the toy away from both kids. Then NEITHER gets special treatment, and the message is clear: It matters not who was right when you end up fighting. You both loose.
But I seriously DOUBT this would happen, and really we would need A LOT of concrete.....
Simple, same as Germany and South Africa. Give Palestinians back their land, try the criminals in Israel for their crimes against humanity, and have a truth and reconciliation board for Palestinians and Israelis. Done.
Also, stop subsiding the failed state of Occupied Palestine, laughingly called "Israel" with 1.6 Trillion American tax payer dollars so far.
End the outrageous subsidies for the 'welfare state" of Israel and the problem will solve itself but not in a way American Hebrews will be happy with as a biased empire with desired outcomes.
The status quo suits the interests of most Israelis. Israel has demonstrated that it can treat international law with contempt and continue its settlement expansion with impunity. The United States, Israel's sole apologist and major financial and military supporter, will do nothing to change the status quo as long as you and I continue to elect representatives to Congress who will stand to applaud an Israeli prime minister so full of chutzpah as to declare during a guest appearance in the halls of our Congress that "in Judea and Sumaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers."
Leave Israel to itself. Cease USA funding to Israel. Israel looks out for Israel and gives not a care for anyone else. They seem to have no respect for the crutch on which they rely.
1) Put Aside the Ancient
> Or You Must Go Back to the Beginning
> That First Miserable Dispute...
-- Oh Gosh! Now It's Just the Two of Us.
-- OK... I will do the dishes if you do the laundry.
2) Breathe in Today's Reality
> You have just been teleported into your neighbor's situation
-- Deep Breath... See/Feel it?
-- Now, Turn yourself in for the lout you are!
-- OK I might turn myself in
+ but few others have the 'guts' to admit to everyone that they 'suck at human being' but most wont
3) Breathe In Your GPS
> The Side 'Dropped' Into Middle of 'Others' Lands
-- Whether deserved, required, etc. decide how that looks, etc. to the 'Others' today no matter the past justifications
- Don't give away or give in but also
-- DO NOT give up on BETTER
> The Side Finding Themselves on other side of the fence
-- Years Ago the Cards were dealt with nearly zero input from you - but how do you proceed today - yesteryear has forgotten you - why live in the past?
> BOTH Sides:
-- After 1000s of Years being twirled round and round: Do you stop the rotation or ride out another millennium (or two) going in circles on the vortex to h...
4) Release The Revenge Rallying Rambler
> The Circle Must Be Broken
> or Those We Love Find Themselves in the Forever Rectangle
5) DROP the Preconditions
> Each preset condition is a potential solution abuser
-- YES, keep your ideals close/strong
-- just don't clog the sink/block the door to something better
6) Emotions are Unavoidable But Must be Voided
> Each of Us Being the judge/jury/execu...
-- is 'solution numbacide!
7) Learn to 'Lose' some big 'no ways' today to Win for future better
8) Past Terrible
> The Only Anger Based 'Payments' Available to 'Cover' Old Wounds are Current Ones...
---------------------
Of course,
-- Merely Finding a 'Better Way' Is Capitulation
-- and being Right Feels so Dern Good.
FORGET IT
- My Children's Children Will Avenge My Ancestors' Ancestors!
Here's the Remote: Press Rewind
Holy land only consists of the top few inches of soil.
All we gotta do is dig up the dirt, ship it to Mexico, and let the Jews fix that place right up.
Get a time machine, go back to some pre-1948 date, gather all parties together, and make it clear to them that if they do not resolve all differences now their descendants will pay for it for years.
That's a fantasy that at times seems no more implausible than what they've been trying for decades.
PS: good post by Allison below.
The only solution is one-state, which is what in fact exists today. If readers to this site would spend time looking at demographic maps or statistics, you will see that within Israel, 20% of the population is Palestinian -- Christians and Muslims. Israel illegally occupies and militarily controls (violations of international law) the West Bank and East Jerusalem with between 500 thousand and one million Jewish Israelis living in colonial settlements. Less than 40% of these lands remain for a non-viable, non-contiguous Palestinian state. And for those who believe this is a religious conflict that has gone on for centuries, check your facts. Prior to the arrival of Zionist Jews in the late 1800s, historic Palestine was 90% Muslims and Christians and 10% Jews. At this time, Zionists from Europe also arrived in Palestine with the desire to create a Jewish homeland. In 1948, they ultimately expelled approximately 750,000 Palestinians from what is now called Israel. (Read Israeli historian Benny Morris.) Expulsions of Palestinians from their land has taken place ever since. How else can we describe what is taking place in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? So the next time you listen to Netanyahu or other Zionists, ask these questions: How much more land do you want? Is it your desire to expel all Palestinians?
First, a bit of history. Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in what is now Israel-Palestine in peace and harmony for centuries. You can trace the roots of the current conflict to the zionist movement that gained steam in the late 19th century and culminated in the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948. The Occupation of the Palestinian people began after the war in 1967, during which Israel captured the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Having lived and worked in Palestine for two years I confess to a bias, but a bias supported by facts on the ground: Palestinians and the whole Arab world have offered peace plans and concessions in good faith efforts to resolve the conflict. Israeli leaders have declared publicly that they intend to offer only plans that contain conditions that Palestinians could never agree to -- making it appear that the Palestinians are the intractable party.
Meanwhile, the Israeli government continues its relentless building of infrastructure on historically Palestinian land. Indeed extremist settlers squat on land and create outposts that eventually become full-fledged settlements, but the Israeli government gives tacit approval by providing these extremists military protection and shelter from lawful prosecution.
The international community, with the exception of the United States, largely agrees on the broad parameters of a peaceful and just resolution to the conflict. It includes secure borders, right of return, free access to Jerusalem and the like.
The United States is, sadly, deeply implicated in the conflict, and therefore must be involved in pursuing a resolution.
The two things we need to do are: 1) Quit giving at least $30 billion in aid to Israel every year, which is used to build the apartheid infrastructure; 2) Quit giving political cover to Israel in the UN and on the world stage.
The world sees our hypocrisy in our unqualified support of Israel and its racist and dangerous policies. We do so at our own peril and in complete contradiction of our stated values of justice, liberty and democracy.
Have a two state plan with 1967 borders. If Israel resists or continues constructing settlements, stop all financial support.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=221824
Other Arab countries giving Arabs(or Jews or Christians) as many freedoms that Israel gives Arabs in Israel.
The best way the US could be a broker in this deal? Hmmm. Offer Israelis citizenship to relocate to south Florida?
Why are we (Americans) expected to solve or even be a part of this problem?
There will not be peace in our lifetime or our children's lifetime. There has been conflict between the religious factions in that part of the world for centuries. All the nations and religiions there need to WANT peace, but it's easier to hate than it is to work hard for peace. They have held onto their grudges and who did what to whom for generations - why should they stop now? This is up to the Israelis and the Palestinians to work at this and no one will ever to able to force them to live together peacefully.
Let the Izzies figure it out…. Sell them a boat load of rockets and watch the fireworks.
The USA should NOT be a global police force… we cannot afford it.
∑
DTOM
I think a one state solution, in the long run, is the only solution that will have any chance of success. The pieces of the west bank and Gaza not controlled by Israel are not enough for a viable state, and Israel will never give up land enough to make Palestine a viable second state.
The status quo cannot last forever.
Thus, they have to live together, in one state.
My question is: Why does it seem so much harder to make peace there than in other parts of the world?
Peace can't happen if the warring parties don't want it. Numerous reasonable solutions have been proposed, but the Israelis and Palestinians are like the proverbial horse that won't drink the water it's been led to. It's a case of American arrogance to think that we have anything to say about how to resolve that conflict, when we can't even agree about how to handle our own political differences.
Nuke 'em and let God sort 'em out.
The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the wrath that hate has built. This conflict is the shining example of how religions, when they run nations, will destroy and kill people. This conflict has gone on decade after decade after decade with reasonable solutions being put on the table and all sides find ways to sabotage some other parties and thrown everyone into disarray. And some of the worse perpetrators of violence, that is suffered by both the Israeli and the Palestinian is perpetrated by entrench political lobbies in the United States and Europe, who from a distance fund and foment violence as an extenuation of their extremist hatred. People must come to their senses and seek peace, accept compromise, put down militant voices and factions everywhere.
Start by acknowledging Israel's right to exist and including it in your maps and history books.
We should set up a betting pool, guessing how many comments will be posted before someone accuses Barack Obama either of endorsing Israel's destruction or of endorsing Zionism/occupation.
I've already learned to not get too excited when an American President makes a speech about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Until either side does something constructive, I'm just going to watch the conflict unfold, shaking my head at the short-sightedness of both sides.
The real roadblock is (and always has been) the Israelis and the Palestinians, not the US President.
Israel certainly has lots of enemies. But by far the worst enemy that Israel has is its own far-right settler movement. Until they deal with that enemy, Israel's situation will continue to deteriorate. Which is really disheartening for Israel's friends, who wish the country the best.
I think the question should be 'is there any way to resolve this'. This seems to be an intractable situation. It is sad to think that the people involved may be at each others throats for many, many years to come.
I don't know what a successful plan will look like exactly, but I suspect a two-state solution will be the framework. Everybody (not just the parties in control) needs to sit down and work it out by talking and listening to each other respectfully.
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