How tough should teachers be on their students?
Posted at 5:00 AM on February 17, 2011
by Eric Ringham
(25 Comments)
Filed under: Education
In a blog post, a high school teacher in Pennsylvania described some of her students as "disobedient, disrespectful oafs. Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy LOAFERS." She may lose her job as a result. Today's Question: How tough should teachers be on their students?
Comments (25)
Lets have a reality check here. What that teacher did was rough, that is a given...however, teachers, every teacher talks about his/her students and not always in a positive manner. So this teacher broke the unwritten rule of don't say anything that could get you in trouble. Here lies the problem.
Never be honest with the parents.
Never tell the student he/she is messing up
No matter what a teacher needs to pass the student, otherwise the teacher is seen as failing the student
Many kids in school do not do the work, in class or out of class
The parent only calls when their child is failing and wants to know why their kid did not pass (this is after 10 calls to the house to get the parent involved)
Many parents do not take an interest in the education of the child
Parents believe the teacher should be the parent of the kid....GUESS WHAT WE ARE NOT THE KIDS PARENT YOU ARE!!!!! STAND UP AND BE A PARENT
The expectation is the teacher should be everything for the student, friend, parent, educational person, babysitter, psych-analyst, nose wiper, resource giver, (spend my money to buy your kid school material), breakfast giver, treat giver and any other hat you want us to wear. Fact is we (Educators are effective only when the PARENT enforces the rules of education). This means if we send homework home...make sure your kid does it. Be involved in the school.
Now I can listen to all the simpletons who believe the teacher is the parent when the kid is in school. I am not there to coddle your kid, hug your kid or give your child special treatment because mommy and daddy were fighting, THAT IS WHAT COUNSELORS ARE FOR!!! I am there to educate your kid, give him or her the material and support so they can be productive in their lives. To help move them to a social understanding and give them a foundation for future endeavors.
Your job, as a parent, is to teach them basic rules, respect, love, responsibility, discipline (you know the foundation for growth), feed them nurture them and provide the sense of family. I am not their family......do you understand that?
Due to the constant meddling within the educational system, making teachers responsible for creating a new life for your kids, teachers have become figure heads, standing in front of the class. If a kid does not want to do the work, does not want to take tests--would rather be on their phone during the class. The teacher does not have the teeth as in the past...sure we can bark though there is no bite.
Yeah yeah...someone will say the kids need it. Our education environment went from--when in school you do the work, you complete the assignments you get the grade, to well if you do not want to work for anything I will pass you anyway because if i do not pass you I can loose my job.
Yeah someone will say if the student does not learn the teacher did not teach. Yes that could be...however, if the student does not do the work and the teacher gives them every chance to do it, yet does not (IT IS NOT THE TEACHERS FAULT). We have too many liberal mentalities in school which placate the student rather than enforce the need to be educated, at some level.
We have kids who leave high school and cannot write a paper, much less fill out an application. Kids who want to succeed, want to go to college and become something in a professional arena work hard. Those kids who do nothing in high school, but past to the next grade for no other reason than I want to keep my job have difficulties in REALITY of LIFE.
Lets go back to what school was meant for....educating kids to be productive people, productive adults, regardless of their field. Stop this political correctness, we don't want to be honest...if the kid is a pain in the butt, say so, let the parent know the child is not performing and give examples. When a teacher lies to a parent, because they do not want to hurt the parents feelings, it is a disservice to everyone. Parents need to pull their heads out and start supporting the educational body of school. Not oh my poor sweet never does anything wrong child....OR HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN YOU WERE A KID ONCE AS WELL....HOW CAN YOU THINK YOUR KID IS ANY DIFFERENT WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING AWAY WITH STUFF.
Teachers need to stand up and be truthful and honest when it comes to identifying how the child is performing in class. When the teacher informs a parent the Admin should have the teachers back. ....But Admin in another story.
I have sympathy for that teacher. First they drive you crazy, and then they get on your case for going crazy. It's not fair. And why should it surprise us that kids are so disrespectful of teachers, when grandstanding politicians regularly try to score political points by bashing schools and teachers, and when kids observe their parents agreeing with such screeds and supporting such politicians?
Another reason for educational problems can be said in two letters... T and V
I believe most educational problems are a result of students with FUP - xxxxxx Up Parents.
I think a better question may be how tough should parents be on their children. It all starts at home.
There is quite a difference between being tough and being insulting. Throwing derogatory names around in a blog to vent is hardly a demonstration of a tough teacher. At least not a productive one. It takes very little brain power to concoct a string of epithets designed to insult and demean.
The tough teachers I know and respect are those who challenge students and do not back down from the basic respectful assumptions that students can and will rise to the challenge when expectations of excellence are clearly articulated and upheld. This was true for me as a student and I still see it today at the university where I work.
Those tough teachers are the ones students remember and come back in 10 years to thank. It is often the only thanks they ever get.
Ever since schools began competing for students(and federal dollars) school discipline has declined. Ever since children were consecrated as "special" their cooperation with teachers has declined.
So much is said of The Greatest Generation...their discipline, respondsibility, courage, and especially their humility.....something sorely missing from today's kids. Each school day my children must run the gauntlet of obscene narcisistic unruly brats. School discipline has eroded for the sake of money.
It's shouldn't be about teachers being "tough". There should be common expectations for behavior, participation, and learning. Teachers and administrators that are lax in enforcement should be called out as "soft" instead.
The problem is that our education system does not hold students to sufficient standards. Poor behavior and lack of effort are tolerated in the classroom, and rewarded by grades inflated to keep parents from complaining. Resetting the system will take effort but is necessary if we want to do right for our children.
Teacher’s hands are tied as far as the consequences they can give out to students. Administration doesn’t back them up. I have had parents show up to my classroom door along with friends, while I was teaching, to threaten me. I have been physically assaulted by a student. They were going to give her a four day suspension, while I was looking at two years of recovery. The system is set up against teachers. The last principal had numerous media reports (including one on MPR) of how she had turned this school around. She would take reporters to classrooms with hand-picked students and all looked good. Meanwhile, the other teachers are struggling with the disruptive, disrespectful, students. Some things need to change in American education, but basic respect, hard work, and honesty begin in the home. Administration needs to effectually deal with the kids and back up teachers.
As a middle school teacher, I don't know if teachers need to be tougher, but principals certainly do. To avoid confrontations with parents, more and more principals change grades over teachers' objections, avoid giving consequences for misbehavior, and force their staff to dumb down courses by cutting student work and rigor of content while calling them "advanced". And if these choices lower student achievement, only the teacher gets the blame.
Teachers should have the right to dispense some reasonable corrections.
They should not have any right to disrespect a student.
Back in my day if you:
Handed in homework late = kneel in the front of the classroom for 15 minutes.
Throwing objects in class = pick up one coffee can of spit balls after they are thrown down the stairs.
Disrespecting teacher or other students= Principle for detention.
∑
DTOM
The mistake that teacher made was not telling of the true nature of her students, rather she identified herself in a blog! Doesn't she know that there is no such thing as privacy on the internet. Anything you say online can and will be used against you. And it's all there for the world to see.
There is no answer to this question really. Teachers can't be "tough" on their students, lest they get fired or sued. I wouldn't be surprised if this teacher has not been the target of lawsuits already.
Name calling has absolutely no positive effects. How do you expect children/adolescents to respect teachers and take school seriously when they hear adults frequently bashing our education system? How many times a week do you hear negative comments regarding schools or teacher pay? If you want children to be respectful and appreciative, maybe the adults in this country should lead by example.
As a high school teacher I get to see everyday the same thing this teacher sees. The days of student and parent accountability have diminished to the point where civil unrule is just around the corner. Are teachers to tough, NO. Students are so unwilling to do even the simplest of work without whining about it, barring the upper level preformers and even this group does from time to time. I hear all the time "I don't get it." even after it has been explained to them 3 or more times and they have been given countless examples to follow. Things as simple as what is a fraction and what does it mean to have the equation A/B. Yes, our education system needs help, but the help it needs is responsible parents. We can no longer allow students to advance in elementary grades when teachers say they are not prepared for the next grade level, parents can no longer be given the choice to advance their children just because they don't want the stigma of having their child repeat a grade or all their friends are in the next grade. The cost to the educational system for trying to teach these students that fail only get harder and more expensive the older they get. Yes, teachers are partially to blame because we answer to parents who think we are incompetent when we can't make their child successful in school. I try everyday to make learning exciting and worthwhile, but I cannot make an unwilling learner learn. The old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." is so true when it comes to educating students.
I agree with many of the observations currently posted. I teach accounting at university so I have real life, front line issues with students feeling a) entitled to a passing grade, b) not interested in learning, c) being annoyed with other students who ask questions or some how seemingly slowing down the "getting through the material process"
I don't know what grades mean anymore. I also tutor / mentor recent graduates who don't feel they have the confidence to succeed in business because university has not prepared them for a business environment. Prestigious school diplomas and 4.0 grade point averages don't mean anything anymore.
By the time I see students, they have been "conditioned" to this response. The training needs to come earlier in their educational career. I won't bore you with the "when I went to school" stories (and there are many, I attended school with the dinosaurs.
I have a reputation for being "tough" and the results are generally poor performance scores when students evaluate me. My classes are known for work and not necessarily fun. But then again, I'm training future accountants and if we (society) want them to thinkers, problem solvers, add value to their employers and ethical; as an instructor I need to be tough.
University is not for everyone and it's time we (society) need to not discriminate against those who value their work contribution and not the degree.
It's not the teachers who need to be tougher, it's the whole school and education system. The teachers are doing their job- to get kids to pass. The whole system is based around a grade, and that is reflected in the students' behaviors. Kids dont want to learn anymore, then want a grade. They want the easiest, fastest way to get in and get out and move on. I've seen it all over with kids of all ages and until schools start stressing learning and creativity students will continue to push out right answers for the sake of thats what the teacher is looking for.
Situations like the one for today's question are precisely the reason my kid goes to a private Christian school. All the curriculum is Advanced Placement by default. The kids WILL rise to the level of the academics - period. There isn't any of this catering to the lowest common denominator and parents MUST be fully involved. There aren't the discipline problems that occur at a public school and the student body is manageable. When will we return as a society to the smaller classroom? When will parents be given adequate vouchers to send their kids to a school where parents, teachers, and kids MUST invest in their education and be held truly accountable? We need to be pushing for a school system that is decentralized and made up of many small, good schools that leaves behind the mega school district and is free from a teachers union. The school boards should be made up of student parents who actually feel the sacrifice of educating their kids in very real terms (their wallets and their time). Teachers should be hired by the parent member school board of the school and students should be given an education that is centered on serving our society.
My apologies for posting such a long comment. Here's the URL to the article, http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jan/24/schools.uk
Expectations determine student performance. As expectations drop...
For data supporting this idea, see the VERY troubling 2006 article by Crase,from the Guardian:
"Children are less able than they used to be"
That's the startling finding of research into how they develop maths and science skills. John Crace, Tuesday January 24, 2006, Guardian
It has become an annual rite of summer. Out come the Sats/GCSE/A
-level results - take your pick - and up pops a government minister
to say that grades are higher than ever, teachers and schools have
done a fantastic job, but there's still room for improvement. Not
everyone takes this at face value and there are a few grumbles
about exams becoming easier. But even if there are suspicions that
standards have dropped, no one has ever seriously suggested that
children's cognitive abilities have deteriorated. Until now.
New research funded by the Economic and Social Research Council
(ESRC) and conducted by Michael Shayer, professor of applied
psychology at King's College, University of London, concludes that
11- and 12-year-old children in year 7 are "now on average between
two and three years behind where they were 15 years ago", in
terms of cognitive and conceptual development.
"It's a staggering result," admits Shayer, whose findings will be
published next year in the British Journal of Educational Psychology.
"Before the project started, I rather expected to find that children
had improved developmentally. This would have been in line with the
Flynn effect on intelligence tests, which shows that children's IQ
levels improve at such a steady rate that the norm of 100 has to be
recalibrated every 15 years or so. But the figures just don't lie. We
had a sample of over 10,000 children and the results have been
checked, rechecked and peer reviewed."
To understand both the science and its implications, we need to
step back 30 years, to when Shayer was part of a six-strong team
of academics - including Margaret Brown, Geoffrey Matthews and
Philip Adey - engaged in research at Chelsea College on concepts in
secondary science and mathematics. "We realised that no one had
actually bothered to investigate how children learned maths and
science, or where the difficulties lay," he says. "So the Social
Science Research Council (SSRC) funded a five-year project - the
longest ever research programme of its kind - to find out."
As the time frame suggests, it was a slow process and Shayer has
clear memories of a young, blue-suited academic - one Ted Wragg -
being sent round after two years had elapsed to check up that the
SSRC's money was being well spent. Wragg gave the Chelsea College
team the thumbs up and in 1979 the research was published.
One of Shayer's main difficulties had been to establish a benchmark
of ability. The psychometric tradition had obvious disadvantages.
For one thing, the Flynn effect implied that an absolute scale of
mental age was impossible, but there were other problems. A score
of 105 might tell you that a child is slightly above average, but it
does not tell you what maths he or she can or can't understand. For
this reason, Shayer decided that using the developmental model of
the Swiss psychologist Jean Piaget was a better bet.
"Although controversial, Piaget's descriptions do provide an
underlying, logic-based, theoretical model to differentiate different
levels of complexity," he says. "It describes the same behaviours -
for example, the ability to control variables in experimenting -
whether the subject is nine or 16." Crucially, the model met the
statistical demands of being criterion-referenced and could be given
equal interval properties.
...
Anyone who has worked for someone or who has run their own business has been "called out" at least once in their career by a boss and/or customer or client. If I screw up one of my accounts, I expect to get called out by my superiors. That's how it works in the real world. My elderly parents are not going to e-mail my boss that he/she is being too hard on their kid. Rubbish. Deal with it kids. You too, Mommy and Daddy.
For these high school kids, their primary "job" is to get an education to prepare themselves for post-secondary education and (hopefully) future employment. These young people need to learn that Mommy or Daddy is not going to bail them out of every jam they get into.
Part of this also lies with the K-12 folks. If the kid in question isn't interested in being in school, don't give them 579 chances to "get it." Kick their butts out based on clear, concise and realistic policies that can be documented so the kids that WANT to learn, CAN. Watching a classmate get expelled with cause might send a message to other kids and their parents.
Every generation will say that those following after (read: "kids these days") have less respect for their elders than they did. This is true though, and today we see parents instilling in their kids that they are some special snowflake that can do no wrong, deserves to be handed everything and questions anybody that would treat them otherwise. What they should be teaching them is that they don't DESERVE anything besides respect, and to have their opinions heard.
Teachers should be as tough on students as they need to be to help them excel and really understand their strengths and weaknesses. Doing that, at every grade level, and sometimes causing a student to repeat a grade, will be the best education that student can ever get.
As tough as politicians are on teachers? As tough as scandal-mongers are on folks who are a tad indescrete about their feelings in blog posts?
My experience affirms the truth of the teacher's comments. That particular teacher teaches high school English. Something's wrong with a society that lets kids reach the age of 15 without learning to respect their elders, and especially their teachers. I suspect that what she wrote about some of her students is mild compared to what they've been allowed to say about their teachers.
Kids do not respect teachers (or any adult for that matter) these days. That are disrespectful little oafs. I see it even in my brothers kids. I think it has a lot to do with parents trying to be friends with their kids instead of parents/roll models.
I would love to see a waiver from the schools that parents could sign allowing their kids teachers to use corporal punishment. I would happily sign it.
In my home, if the cops were to bring the kids home or they got into trouble in school. They would really rather stay in jail or in detention vs. what's in store for them when they get home. It's all about respect.
I grew up under the rule of corporal punishment and I've turned out to be a prominent and contributing member of society. I know a lot of kids that grew up beside me without corporal punishment in their home. As adults now, they are pretty much useless and a deficit as far as society is concerned.
This teacher should be applauded for her willingness to speak up. Perhaps the parents of these kids should wake up and look at their kids instead of crying to the school board that someone hurt their feelings. Our society is getting to soft!
I agree, as tough and as gentle as their heart-minds can understand that there is no such thing as failure, only feedback.
Everything is an learning opportunity to find out what works and what doesn't work. It is important to separate behavior from identity.
People already have all the resources they need.
We learn how to access these resources at appropriate times and places.
Every behavior is useful in some context.
We all need to learn (especially parents and teachers) to separate behavior from identity.
What does this mean in plain English? Here’s an example:
Remember when you were a child? Did anyone ever call you stupid for something you did wrong? [I guess especially members of the older generations would have had this kind of phrase in their daily lives. ] Well, how did it affect you? Some better than others. But those whom it affected badly took it up as though it was true: they were stupid. Both they and were are identity statements. And remember – a child doesn’t have their reasoning as well developed as you do who are reading this now. So it’s very likely that the child would take this to heart without question, especially if s/he heard this phrase from his/her parents, teachers [if you're old enough to remember the times when teachers were getting away with calling children stupid], or other significant people in his/her life. And of course, repetition is also great for instilling stuff into us, right?
So as a result, we have loads of folks out there now who didn’t develop their potential to the fullest and stayed somewhere in the shadow of the best all their lives. Have you ever heard someone say ‘if I were 18 again I’d do many things differently?’ Exactly the point! And the most insidious thing here is that some of those people never realized that this decision to stay in the shadow of what they could have achieved in life may have been a direct result of the ‘you’re stupid’ mantra – and ones similar thereto!
Well, this can all be prevented – at least when, from now on, you communicate with other people. Separate identity from behavior. If the child from our example does something wrong, that’s an issue of behavior. But it doesn’t mean the child is a bad person. The behavior is easy to correct, the identity can take a long time to correct once damaged. So if you say “you’ve done this wrong” or “I don’t like what you’re doing” or “I love you, but this behavior is unacceptable”, you bet the child will take this much better – and will even correct his/her stinking behavior with a much better attitude.
Of course, this principle of separating identity from behavior is equally applicable to a professional setting. How will you phrase your reprimand the next time an employee or colleague seriously screws up and whose screwup has by now cost the company lots of irretrievable money? Mistakes are expensive, right? But losing it with the guilty person in the heat of your frustration could prove even more expensive in the long run!
And this is another great point: it’s exactly the heat of our frustration that leads us to saying things like “you’re this” and “you’re that” and “he’s such a lazy/arrogant/ignorant ******”, and we all know how easy that can be, right? So control your tongue – even while the emotions are running high! And then you’ll be able to separate identity from behavior – and implement it into your actions!
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