What is the right length for an album?
Posted at 10:57 AM on December 24, 2007
by Mark Wheat
(18 Comments)
During last weeks discussion of the death of the album, several comments suggested that there was a 'correct' length for a collection of songs or musical pieces of any genre, to work well together;
"...there's just something about that length - 45 minutes" and separately... " the Sea & Cake (one of my fave bands) has done this with every album - 10 songs, 36 minutes, and that's it." - david
" We've also got it on good authority that 36 minutes is the ideal album length." - Spoon's Myspace page quoted by Mac Wilson.
I noticed on Thursday when I played a track from Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side of the Moon' to illustrate this discussion, that it is 44 minutes long. Both lps of Led Zep's double opus 'Physical Graffiti" are 42 to 43 minutes long. Is it just coincidence? Well no, just as cds can technically hold around 74 minutes, 12 inch vinyl platters can most easily hold 20-22 minutes a side making this the perfect practical length.
But, and this might be the 'provocative statement' that can ignite the discussion;
I believe that 45 minutes is a biological rhythm that our bodies respond to. Musical pieces, being the physical expression of electrical energy, the universal language, work at this length because our bodies are attuned to receive stimulation in 45 minute cycles. But this theory doesn't just work in music, think about how a time period of concentration is designated in other areas of your life;
- Meetings traditionally last an hour around MPR but we take 5-10 minutes getting started and who doesn't yawn and/or look at their watch 5-10 minutes before the hour is up?! Some schools have 45-50 minute class length.
- Why are soccer games made up of 45 min halves? American Football even has 4 periods which take 3 hours to play?
- Why are the majority of films 90 minutes long?
- A cd designed to accompany yoga based meditation practices that my sister-in-law sent us...exactly 45 mins!
After some simple searching I cannot find any empirical, scientific evidence to back up this theory, maybe you can? Perhaps this is just a time signature that I have observed myself responding positively to and I've adapted a series of coincidences to suit my reasoning...so what works for you?
Comments (18)
Mark,
I have to weigh in on this subject. I feel the ideal length for an album should be directly related to just how much inspiration the artist(s) want to put on it. Though I assume this has historically been limited to the amount of information various media can hold, current limitations are not the same as they once were. In an age where itunes seems to be an acronym for 'individual tunes', I long for the days of the album as an art form. Where have our attention spans gone? It seems we no longer respect our artists enough to just sit down and listen to what they want to put together, shame on anyone who tries to confine and constrain the art of music in such a way! Everyone please buy and listen to music! Buy Records and 'full' resolution cds and hear what you're missing-computers are not audio systems!
I think the only way to answer this question is to say that there is no right length for an album.
An album is often put on as background for an activity, be it a dinner party or cleaning your house, and length doesn't really affect how you listen to it in those settings. In some cases, listening to the album IS the actual event. (this is where the last question about 'is the album dead would come into play but I won't get into that) For the people who appreciate the album as a whole and don't just see it as a few singles and some filler, they will be able to sustain interest whether the album is 30 minutes or 75. (Unlike the office meeting, which is an obligation and not something enjoyed in your leisure)
As a consumer, if I buy an album for $10 that's 70 minutes, I feel it's a better bargain than a $10 cd that is 40 minutes. That's not to say that I'll like the longer one better because it's a better deal. It's just an initial, passing thought.
In regards to the meditation cd that's only 45 minutes, that's being sold to a society that is on the go, to people who can't sit still for more than 5 minutes because they feel they have all this other stuff to do. The idea of meditating for 45 whole minutes may drive some people crazy but for people who are seriously into meditation, most of them can, and probably do, meditate for a lot longer than 45 minutes.
Since most LPs were able to hold 20-22 minutes a side and these epic albums used as much of that time as possible, it could be argued that if the technology were around in the 60's and 70's to have the albums be 30 minutes a side (or longer), these bands may have made hour long albums because they were utilizing all the space/time they had available to them.
Weighing in as the "classical music guy" who's ostensibly supposed to know something about this topic: all share what (limited) knowledge I have on it.
The topic of the original LP record being designed to be 45 minutes long for musical reasons (rather than practical ones) comes up often. It's regularly suggested that the format of two sides of roughly 20 minutes each was chosen becuase this perfectly accomodated particular, significant (and thus oft-recorded) classical music pieces. Well, it's true that there is probably a classical music connection --- when Columbia was developing the LP in the 1940s, the goal was to invent a format that would accomodate the bulk of the most popular classical music repertoire (18th and 19th century symphonies, concertos and such), whose major works top out roughly at about 45 minutes (again, the BULK of it; Beethoven's 9th, for example, fails this test, as do many other works and ALL operas, but something is always going to fail; in these cases one simply has to add additional discs). However, there were other considerations; the fact that an LP ended up being what it was was also determined by the invention of certain kinds of motors, which would end up being used in modern phonographs, which ran at particular speeds, and also, by what was simply considered a convenient size. Speed, plus size, equals length.
That's scratching the surface, if you'll forgive the pun.
I'm not as bad with this as I used to be, but I do see the logic in wanting more for your money, i.e., given the choice between paying $9.99 for 10 songs over 36 minutes, or paying $9.99 for 17 songs over 75 minutes, it's easy to choose the latter. So I can certainly relate to Mary's point.
One more thing, the 45 minute biological rhythm of our bodies isn't a valid arguement. You both prove it and disprove it in your examples. At the very least, a lot more reasearch would have to be done.
Soccer games could be used as evidence for: you enjoy 45 minutes of entertainment, then get a break to regroup, refuel, etc. before enjoying another 45 minutes of entertainment.
90 minute moves are evidence against: While there are some people who have to get up during movies (most likely due to the 115 oz beverage that they drank during the previews), the majority of the population is able to sit through a 90 minute movie without fidgeting or feeling the need for a break at the half way mark.
Of course I meant 90 movies not 90 minute moves (that would be a different blog all together).
The perfect album length. i would say...40 minutes. I have loved 70-some minute albums (Disintigration - the cure)/never gotten through others in one sitting(even though i may still love them) and thought 30 minute albums were the perfect length (It's a shame about ray -the lemonheads) Big Drill Car has a ten song album that is like 24 minutes long and it's perfect that way. That new Band of Horses album kind of left me wanting more. but that was also a good thing. Generally, forty or so minutes is perfect; and that is probably from growing up with vinyl LP's (ie: albums). Let's not forget the 3 hour 69 Love Songs by the Magnetic Fields which only contains about 5 minutes of filler. Could you imagine a three hour album by, say, Cake or Live?!
Mark,
While I believe that an artist should be able to make an album however long they feel inspired to do, I do think that the optimal length does seem to be about forty-five minutes. I have some albums that I really enjoy and are under thirty minutes and some that are well over an hour. The problem with and album under half an hour is that it's done about the time I'm really getting into it and it's difficult to sit through a longer album no matter how good it is. I also feel like I've wasted quite a bit of time listening to a whole album when it's over an hour. I'm not old enough to remember when vinyl ruled the earth(although I do enjoy listening to vinyl), but that forty-five minute length seem to be just the right amount of time to really get into an album, but not too long that you lose interest.
hello again, all!
i am not sure if there is any real definitive answer to this question, but it is fun to examine. Mark, i also seem to recall that when i was in high school a teacher of mine said that some studies had proven that 45-50 mintues was the optimal amount of time for a class or meeting - that that would be the amount of time that a person could give their utmost of concetration and still have some retention of the material afterward.
given that, while i agree that the amount of time for an "album", or any work of art, should be limited only by the artist him-or-herself, that is really not what the question is here - the question is "what is the optimum length?" and frankly i think 35-50 minutes is it.
all evidence i have of this is, of course, anecdotal, and hence inconclusive & subjective in nature - but there you have it. i remember hearing Frank Black's second solo release back when it first came out (Teenager of the Year), & thinking "damn, this would make a great album if he'd simply lose like 15 minutes of it" - the thing was over an hour long! it was great, but it just couldn't hold my attention enough for that length. even a rambling portentious group like Yes produced what most say is there best work at under 40 minutes in length - "Close to the Edge" - granted, that was 3 songs for them (18 minutes on side 1, 10 minutes & 9 minutes on the flip). still, it was far more memorable than the follow-up, "Tales from Topographis Oceans" (featuring 4 20 minute songs - not so memorable).
and Mark, i loved the point about movies - 90 minutes. over that, & it starts to feel bloated, & there had better be a good reason to keep you in your seats for that long. over the holiday one of my in-laws had seen "Juno", & loved it. she commented - "its nice to see someone can still make a 90 minute movie - whatever happened to that?"
With apologies to President Lincoln, an album should be long enough to reach the ears.
Listening to The Who's Live at the Isle of Wight (1970), which clocks in at 1:52:19 (according to WMP), it is the perfect length - though it neither fits on one piece of vinyl nor one CD. Yet, start to finish, it is an incredible collection of music.
A quick check of Ruby Vroom says it clocks in at 1:01:34. What should be trimmed from that release to take it down to a more circadian-friendly 45:00??? Mark, I mock thee.
I can see reasons why the supply side might arrive at a 45-60 minute album, but I think it's more related to demand.
Would I buy an EP with 2 songs on it? Usually not-- I'd feel ripped off. Especially when you're the Smiths and you're just re-releasing stuff. Eight or ten tunes sounds like more of a bargain for the buyer. And if an artist only has two songs to sing at the moment, well, shouldn't they be working harder?
It's hard to think of any time that I could listen to a whole album if it were more than 60 minutes-- except maybe a road trip.
Thanks for stepping in with expert opinions Mr.Seel and for the supporting statements Andy, Wells T. and david. I never expected the 'supply side' of the argument, I am certainly not trying to hamper an artists creativity but they are trying to produce a product that works aren't they? This theory just suggests what length works well, at least for me and perhaps it is a personal thing, we all have our own biological cycles imprinted by genes or environment. Mary suggested that most people couldn't stand the idea of meditating for 45 minutes?!?! That seems crazy to me, I try to do this regularly and in fact this is where this theory of mine evolved. Last week stpaulbear suggested that I play DJ Sets that are more than 45 minutes. I don't, the guest set is never longer than 30 minutes but many times I have noticed that a set will have a natural cycle that culminates around 45 minutes and taking a segment out of one to play usually ends up to be 25 minutes, i.e..one half. That also explains, Mary, why I used the movie example, I think it is a cycle but we can use it in multiples, so a movie has a natural 'breathing space' about half way through, just like the soccer game!
While I was talking about the blog on the air tonight I had a call from Connor in St.Louis Park, he asked; "would you limit how much paint Van Gogh could use?" Again, no, but why did so many artists use a canvas of a certain size? Because it worked visually with the image that they wanted to present, so perhaps this is the same, an audio picture works best on a canvas of 45 minutes?
I just came back to tell Roy that his road trip reasoning is spot-on. Long car rides are pretty much the only circumstances whatsoever that I'm able to make it through Blonde on Blonde. A teacher first recommended it to me when I was 17 ("Don't tell anyone you don't own Blonde on Blonde...it's gonna be okay") and it's done the trick on several road trips. When you drive all night, your circadian rhythms are rendered moot, so anything goes!
Hey Mark, how's that for another topic of discussion: road trip music?
Mark,
I was listening to your broadcast tonight and I was intrigued by this discussion. I came up with an idea that the "optimal album length" has less to do with total album length than average song length and optimal number of songs. My idea has two parts:
The first part is has to do with how long the average song is. It seemed to me that rock songs don't vary too much outside of 3.5 to 4 minutes long. To confirm this, I sampled 1600 rock/hip hop songs from my music library. Assuming that my sample is indicative of your average rock song (which is arguable), and doing a little bit of statistics, I can say with 95% confidence that your average rock song is between 3.8 and 4.1 minutes long.
The second part is my idea that the optimal number of songs in an album is 12. The reason for this is that 12 can be split up into 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3. I know that you and the other DJ's on the Current like to play songs in sets of 3 or 4 so your listeners can remember the songs that were played. Albums can work the same way with 3 "sets" of 4 songs or 4 "sets" of 3 songs.
Putting the two parts together, I can say, with 95% confidence that the optimal length of an album is between 45 and 49 minutes long.
What do you think?
I had a similar thought along the lines of what Ian was talking about, albeit not quite so scientific. I was thinking in terms of number of songs that I can take at a sitting. The average for me is about 10-12. It also depends on how much I'm enjoying the music, I've definitely purchased an album and found that I'm not enjoying it as much as I thought and then groan at the prospect of having to slog through a few more songs and thinking "Shouldn't this be over by now?"
Of course, Sloan's "Never Hear The End of It" blows that theory out of the water clocking in at 30 songs.. Even then, it can be a little daunting to listen to all of that in one go.
As for timing, I think it's partly natural rhythm, but also programming from the years of when albums couldn't be more than 40-45 minutes. I'm happy with 40-45 minutes. Although when having a dinner party or hanging out with friends, having a slightly longer album playing is nice so you're not jumping up every half hour to change the CD.
I like Mac's "Road Trip Music" idea. Or how about " Is There A 'Minnesota Sound' Today, and What Is It?" or something along those lines.
heck, given people's attention spans these days, i'm amazed albums still exist. In my own experience, it comes down to how long a band can stay interesting. Some bands can slosh out 80 minutes, but is that 80 minutes worth listening to? There is an art and a balance to making an album in which songs give way to each other either and bring us along on a journey (pink floyds "dark side of the moon") or show us different sides of the same snapshot (TV on the Radio's "Return to Cookie Mountain"). A good album is one i feel i can get lost in - in which case, time is a non-issue. Unfortunately, those albums are few and far between. With MP3s, there's a sense of returning to the "singles" idea. Some albums play like a collection of 10 singles (Weezer's green album, 10 songs that all pretty much sound the same) versus a complete unit of art (radiohead's OK Computer). But we're talking about averages. By and large, 45 minutes feels about right for a band that knows what they're doing. Long enough to feel complete (to say/do what they came to do), yet short enough to leave you wanting some more (that's where B-sides come in). Completeness that gives us satisfaction. This goes with an average song length of about 4 minutes equalling 12 songs - which i think is the perfect number of songs. It completely coincides with the idea of enough vs. too little/much. For a hardcore band who has 30 songs clocking in at 1.5 minutes a piece, that's still too much. 45 minutes or 12 songs. That's the deal, right there.
Thanks to bsimon for mentioning the 'circadian cycle', led me to some interesting info;
"ScienceDaily (Sep. 10, 2007) — Scientists have long known that the human body runs like clockwork, guided by a circadian system that responds to daily patterns of light and darkness. Now a team of researchers is developing a personal device to measure daily light intake and activity, which could allow them to predict optimal timing for light therapy to synchronize the circadian clock to the 24-hour solar day and relieve psychosocial stress.
Like a clock that needs to be set daily for accurate time-telling, the circadian clock – an internal regulating mechanism that controls the repetition of biological activities such as core body temperature variations, hormone production and secretion, and sleeping and waking patterns, among other functions in the human body – requires similar “setting” from the light each day. " It was suggested on several sites that 45 periods of light could help in dark environments, and elsewhere that 45 minute naps are optimal..."A normal sleep cycle is 90 minutes, " and many sites detailing work out regimes suggested that 45 minutes is optimal for an exercise routine too.
Thanks to Ian also for emphasizing the sequencing argument, which could be another whole discussion...how could we have great track # 7's if there wasn't 6 songs before that?! and the length of our sets is at least a very perceptive observation. We seem to be in agreement about 10-12 songs too, glad to have that consensus and the road-trip discussion will definitely return.
Next Week; What was your fave gig of the year and why?
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