In school today, a lesson in propaganda

Comments (21)

Unbelievable. Right-wing opponents will reach and reach, looking for the slightest titch of "communism" and "socialism" (both of which are the same thing in their minds) by parsing and twisting meaning. And you want to call it "propaganda"? Please explain what the Bush/Cheney/Rove team were spewing from 2001-2008.

Posted by Don Jacobson from Minneapolis, MN | September 8, 2009 8:18 AM

I'm a conservative, and am not convinced by the arguements against having the president speak to students. It's not cult of personality: Obama is Our President. President Bush dealt with this same kind of disrespectful bipartisenship. If we can't let our own President directly tell our students to drink milk and stay in school along with the posters of basketball players and movie stars saying the same thing (which we generally have no problem with), I question the health of our nation's overall backing of the institution of the executive office.

Posted by Rob Roberts from St. Paul, MN | September 8, 2009 8:58 AM

The innuendo alluding to the "Little Red Book" is right up there with the sleaziest of Rush Limbaugh comments. Congratulations.

Posted by Robert Potts | September 8, 2009 9:38 AM

Please also review my comments to Tom Weber, who assembled the story: http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/09/03/obama-schools-speech/

" Steve Lieb, of Cologne, Minn., wrote a letter to the Waconia school district. He didn't threaten to keep his four children home - but he did call on the district to be careful in how it handles the matter.
"I don't know what he's going to say, and I tend to want to reserve judgment and listen to what he's going to say, but at that point the message has already gone out," Lieb said. "And if it is a political one, the damage would have been done already."

For those who laugh patronizingly at the idea that it might have been taken as a chance to spew propoganda, I present "I pledge".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqcPA1ysSbw

Some wonderful stuff in there, that I think everyone can totally agree with - about just being nicer, about trying to be a unified country again in spirit and not just in name, but some fairly radical left wing crap neatly nested into the message as well. Sheesh.

I'm positive that Mr. Obama's speech to students today has now been very, very carefully scrubbed given the public reaction.

Ironically, now if his speech is scrubbed and only about working hard in school, etc - some of the preparatory materials make no sense anymore. How can schoolkids think about "how they can help President Obama" if he's just telling them to work harder in school?

I'm not holding my kids out of school (that would be baby & bathwater, certainly). But I don't believe that being concerned about this administration's efforts to convince children of the rightness of its political viewpoint (particularly considering that the adult public is not flocking wholesale to their banners, clearly) is foolishness, either.

-Steve

Posted by Steve Lieb from Cologne, MN | September 8, 2009 9:43 AM

One could easily claim in the national media that the President was going to assert that elephants were harmful creatures that should be exterminated. Then, when it didn't happen, claim it was because you called them on it.

If there's evidence to support that the speech has been "scrubbed" due to the controversy, I'd like to see it.

Posted by Alan Krueger from Farmington, MN | September 8, 2009 10:16 AM

I find it incredibly frustrating that 'conservatives' are having such mounting fears about what President Obama's speech will inspire.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the President of the United States addressing the children in the public school systems (funded by the people through government) telling them to stay in school, work hard and set goals for themselves.

I have worked with high school students up until this year and there have been some outstanding students, but there have also been some absolutely lazy and ungrateful kids too. Many parents are not engaged in their children's lives and push just hard enough to get them through school with no real inspiration or goal setting. The time for parents trying to be their childrens' 'friend' is absurd and needs to stop.

Children in the school system need to hear that they must set goals and they must work hard to achieve those goals.

Too many children believe their future will come to them & they don't have to work hard.

There is nothing wrong with teachers following the lesson plan provided by the department of education. Children SHOULD be thinking about their goals and what they can do for their community & their own success.

Posted by M Moore from Duluth, MN | September 8, 2009 10:25 AM

I wonder if people who are screaming about 'socialism' realize that their children are attending public, government run schools? Our children are mandated by government laws to attend public (or private if you can afford paying double for it) school, and have curriculum dictated to them by government programs like No Child Left Behind (Bush era program FYI). What's the problem with the properly elected head of our government wanting to be given a platform in our government schools? We're already in a 'socialist' system when it comes to education. This is old news people.

In regards to the community aspect of the materials with the speech... It's just sad that we've become so self-centered that we feel threatened by people suggesting that we consider the greater good of others before ourselves. This is especially ironic in a nation that considers itself a 'Christian' nation.

Posted by Jamison Stepan from Saint Paul, MN | September 8, 2009 10:28 AM

The "uneasiness" felt by Mr. Lieb and others actually makes me uneasy. First, the general level of misinformation they exhibit (confusing our version of governmental involvement with "socialism", for instance) frightens me about their ability to meaningfully understand our political system in America. Second, their readiness to attack President Obama for remarks and communications that parallel almost exactly those of President Reagan twenty-five years ago suggests something other than honest political dissent. Third, even if President Obama WERE suggesting things as these folks seem to say he is, have they drifted so far into totalitarian thinking that the solution is NOT TO LISTEN and ARGUE? What happens if our populace simply stay home when they do not like what they might hear? Is this what the founders envisioned, a nation of no-nothings who hide from ideas they disagree with?

Posted by Bill Percy from Minneapolis, MN | September 8, 2009 10:39 AM

Sadly typical of the tack the broader conservative movement seems to have chosen, unable to resist the pull of the extremist right. The question should not be why is the President addressing our students directly to urge discipline, dedication and excellence while affirming the importance of their efforts to our nation...but why doesn't every President do it every year?

The principles espoused by the address (freely available online) are wholly American. Would Mr. Lieb detail exactly what in the speech is offensive? Show up to school? Pay attention to your teachers? Listen to your parents? Put in the hard work it takes to succeed? Maybe that everyone has something they are good at and has something to offer? That their destiny is in their own hands?

The strategies cited are from a four-page "Menu" of possible classroom activities in conjunction with the speech. This menu was prepared by actual classroom teachers and consists of common strategies to get students to interact with source material.

It is a fallacy to equate tactics with philosophy. These strategies can be found in the writings of Stephen Covey, Rick Warren, John Maxwell and more. Many Christians keep a Bible, have quotes from it on their walls and gather in groups large and small to discuss, reinforce and hold each other accountable for our faith. Does that make us Marxist too?

So if the sentiment of urging our students to greatness is good, the actual content of the address is good, and the strategies for processing and perhaps acting on the content are basic pedagogy...what is really your problem, Mr. Lieb?

Posted by John Seipp from Burnsville, MN | September 8, 2009 10:46 AM

1) "If there's evidence to support that the speech has been "scrubbed" due to the controversy, I'd like to see it."
Of course there is no evidence; as I told Tom Weber - I didn't know what he was going to say. I can say for certain that the preparatory materials WERE scrubbed (removed the 'think about what you can do to help President Obama' clause). But I'm nearly certain that's not enough for those on the other side of the aisle. It's not PROOF that the speech was edited; we'll never know. But one could say it is proof that the tenor if not the point of the speech was 'rethought', no?

2) again, I have NOTHING against the president supporting public education. I have NOTHING against the president telling kids to do well in school and work hard. I invite you again to watch "I pledge" as an insight into the administration's earlier presentation of this 'sort' of message: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqcPA1ysSbw

Watch it, and say with a straight face that in between the pleasant Kum by Yah stuff (that we all probably agree with in principle) there's not significant amounts of propoganda about hybrids, plastic, the environment, 'access' to healthcare, etc. As an example of this administration's 'public service' message, I *do* see that as propaganda, and if delivered in a school setting would be TOTALLY unacceptable.

3) as regards Mr. Percy's comments - I *entirely* agree. I love the fact that we are having this discussion; this is the meat of democracy. Do you *really* think that such a discussion would follow the presentation in a SCHOOL? In such a setting, the teacher is (rightfully) seen as an authority figure, not a peer to be argued with. Moreover, few kids have formulated their political views, and merely parrot those of their parents; any instinctive reaction against Mr. Obama's 'vision' would easily be argued down by a teaching staff which is largely liberal and far better prepared to support their view of things cogently.
Certainly, as this was also proposed to be presented to ALL schools (not simply senior high where your point might have some merit) you cannot contend that the elementary students would be anything other than passive absorbers of information?

And for all of those throwing out the socialist strawmen...(shrug). I referred to the Little Red Book - the comment was of course ironic, pointing to the adulatory reverence shown in the prep materials for (specifically) OBAMA's quotes on education...not just *anyone's*.
I appreciate that the mention collectivization and commissars apparently touched a nerve, as it was meant to.

Finally, I appreciate this discussion, and hope you posters return to make it more of a dialogue than most commentary postings.

As an aside, I wrote and rewrote the original text above as a letter to my local school administrators; my only regret was that I'd omitted one variation where I'd explicitly said that as president, Mr. Obama was *entitled* to the benefit of the doubt but that I felt the need to speak up in advance so that administrators understood that there were questions in (at least this) parental mind(s) about the presentation. That was an unfortunate omission, in retrospect.

Posted by steve lieb from Cologne, MN | September 8, 2009 11:40 AM

The huge irony in Mr. Lieb's comments is that he is, himself, the product of perhaps the best propaganda machine ever created: the Republican right wing. Given today's modern communications techniques or tools, it is arguably the greatest propaganda organization in history--certainly in the twenty-first-century United States. Indeed, the master of modern twentieth-century propaganda, Joseph Goebbles, could not have done any better.

The right wing of the Republican party has an extremely well-developed communications network, something at which the Democrats are worse than awful. Witness the almost instantaneous disruptions of town hall meetings all over the United States--accomplished by publishing a disruption strategy and disseminating it through bloggers, TV talk shows, and talk radio. The right wing usurped the national debate on health care.

And now, it has controlled the discussion of whether the president of the United States should speak to the nation's school children. Using half-truths and innuendo, just as Mr. Lieb does, it has created an army of followers who lack the critical thinking skills Mr. Lieb claims we should pursue. It's really kind of creepy how the right wing has created a cult of personality--Mr. Lieb being a prime example.

If Mr. Lieb wants our children to have a lesson in the history of propaganda, we need only put him in front of a critical thinking class and let the students question him as to how he developed his beliefs.

And shame on you, Public Radio . . .

A few loud people of the Republican right, using the powerful propaganda machine it has created, now have the news media asking Americans whether it is ok for the president of the United States to speak to the nation's school children. Do you feel at all a little chagrined? Just a little? The media should be asking whether it is in the nation's best interest to continually allow this very sophisticated and highly politicized communications network to control the debate on the nation's important issues.

The media needs to stop itself from being led around political discussions by the ring the right wing has clipped firmly in its nose.

Posted by Joe Koppi from MENDOTA HEIGHTS, MN | September 8, 2009 12:11 PM

I hope that the writer understands what propaganda is. It is defined as communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. By that definition, what President Obama is doing is propaganda. The position is one of working hard in school and setting goals while working to achieve them. If this is something we do not want to encourage our children to listen to, then I don't know what we are working for in our world.
To keep people from worrying that the President was going to stand on his soap box and say, vote for Democrats or tell your parents to do this, or write your legislature, or do my bidding, the President did post the transcript of what he was going to say. Before you worry about it, please read it, I won't try and repeat and analyze, one thing I learned was that it is best to let the text speak for itself.
The speech that the President gave to the students of America was a good one and trying to use examples of people who worked hard and are now getting the rewards of hard work. This is something we should encourage and praise if it is coming from Obama, Rush, Clinton, Kobe, or anyone. I would love when I have children attending schools they have a figure that they look up to tell them to work hard and you can achieve things. It would be a wonderful thing if with the message, it gave the teachers some resources to make the goals and some ideas on what they should be doing with this speach.
If you haven't read the speach, please do.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/

Posted by Rick McCoy from Inver Grove Heights, MN | September 8, 2009 12:26 PM

I'm disgusted by this blind partisanship. How does Mr. Lieb feel about the Pledge in schools? Isn't that "indoctrination" as well? If we are using the straw man here, as Mr. Lieb is, we could say that pledging unwavering allegiance to a country is a stepping stone to fascism.

Of course, we know that this is not true, and similarly that Obama's speech and accompanying materials are not intended to promote and will not lead to socialism/communism. It's silly. Laughable, even.

It is a sad that a speech with an overwhelmingly positive message by the President of our country that could segway into an important civics lesson for youth across the nation has instead been soured by bitter partisan political games.

Shame on you, Mr. Lieb. Shame on you.

Posted by Cary Christopherson | September 8, 2009 12:32 PM

Lets remember this situation the next time some religious group wants prayer in the schools. Certainly that is pushing one philosophy over another into the school systems. While I agree with prayer, I don't want it in the schools.

When we keep our kids from something, there is no way to learn and discuss something that is different from what is in the home. That's ok to a point with young kids, but it doesn't promote education and maturity. It doesn't promote compassion and learning about other cultures.

The other thing I wonder about is how much the anti-Obama-speech people actually monitor other things their kids do, such as TV shows and movies and video games.

Unfortunately, we are seeing the results of what happens when people are not educated in critical thinking skills and not taught that there are a number of viewpoints about any subject in the un-civil discourse that is taking place in this country today. Lack of critical thinking skills leads to people believing propaganda as if is the only was of thinking about something rather than seeing it as it is, just a one sided view of something.

Posted by Jen Garbisch from MN | September 8, 2009 2:52 PM

Ok - so where was this type of resistance to the speeches that Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II gave to schoolchildren during past administrations? For example: 1986 - Ronald Reagan took questions from high school students at the White House and the question-and-answer session was broadcast nationally. Reagan urged the students to stay in school and say no to drugs, but he also discussed national defense funding, nuclear disarmament and taxes. Where were these people then? Why did they have no opposition to Reagan's right-wing propaganda in our schools? It's hypocritical at best. This letter from Mr. Lieb is no more than a regurgitation of the propagandist brainwashing voodoo that the right wing media has been exerting on an unsuspecting public for years; and it's simply sad.

Posted by Pete McCauley from St. Paul, MN | September 8, 2009 4:10 PM

When I was growing up, I was taught not to dignify statements or situations by remarking on them. However, it appears these statements need a response even if it does dignify them.

President Obama represents all of us no matter what groups elected him. It is important for all of us to hear what the president has to say with an open mind, whether or not we agree with him. When did that become propaganda instead of patriotism? Yes, there were exercises put together for classes to use based on his speech. When did that become propaganda instead of fostering a good education? I can see by Mr. Lieb's picture that I am significantly older than he is; I expect his education has failed him.

Posted by Anne Peiffer from Minneapolis, MN | September 8, 2009 7:33 PM

I have known Steve Lieb for many years. His public educators were at Eden Prairie HS and our very own University of Minnesota. The fact that he came out of the U with a semblance of individual thought is remarkable. As an international businessman, father, husband, brother and son, Steve has always been a deep thinker. He informs himself on issues before taking a position. Is he Right Wing? Nope, sorry. Is he conservative? Absolutely. He believes in family, community, and country. I'm proud to say he's my brother. You're making Mom proud! Love ya.

Posted by Tracy Goodwin from Minnetonka, MN | September 8, 2009 8:32 PM

Neither of my two children were allowed to view the President's speech during their school hours thanks to people like the author of the above article. While I think that if he or anyone else who found President Obama's message offensive did in fact have every right to ask that their kids not view the speech, I also think that my own children should have been allowed to see their President speaking to THEM (let's remember this was for the children) about the importance of taking responsibility for their education, their success and their country's future.

Regardless of political affiliation I want my kids to see that many people beyond their family and their community support and are invested in their education.

Our family did watch the speech together this evening, and it gave me immense pride to see an elected official speaking plainly to our youth about exactly how important they ALL are to our country's future, and how vital their efforts are for all of us. I am proud of my President, proud of my country, and most of all, proud that our children are smart enough to see past the ridiculous rhetoric of people who consider encouraging our kids in their education a form of indoctrination. Helping and and supporting our children's education has, I believe, no political affiliation, so maybe we should put more effort into that...or perhaps that sounds too socialist.

Posted by Tess Lewandowski from Chaska, MN | September 8, 2009 9:40 PM

"[Steve Lieb] informs himself on issues before taking a position." -From commenter Tracy

The text of Obama's speech was available on the president's website yesterday and the prep materials were scrapped. So why is he still denouncing it today? Sounds like Steve already had his mind made up about this speech before it happened.

Posted by Marc Anderson from Eden Prairie, MN | September 8, 2009 10:11 PM

The only propaganda involved in this entire exercise is the sort of rhetoric made (or quoted?) by Mr. Lieb. The President gave our children and grandchildren a good, old-fashioned, values-based pep talk. What in the world is wrong with that? It's the same sort of speech that George H. W. Bush made during his presidency.

And the study materials from which Mr. Lieb quoted at length were not a part of the speech and were, in fact, not distributed with it.

I know for a fact that my third-grade granddaughter sat, with her class, in front of a TV to hear the address. She seems to have no idea what the President was talking about. If it was intended as propaganda, it was quite woefully ineffective.

Posted by Dan Graham from Maplewood, MN | September 9, 2009 9:17 PM

Studies have shown that writing your goals down will help you to realize them.

Posted by Sue Brighten from Mpls., MN | September 15, 2009 11:28 AM

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