Is it time for Palestine to become an independent state?
Posted at 11:11 AM on September 23, 2011
by Eric Ringham
(36 Comments)
Filed under: International affairs
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas formally asked the United Nations today to grant Palestine status as a member state. Today's Question: Is it time for Palestine to become an independent state?
Comments (36)
@Mike,
Your history is not quite right. Strictly speaking Jews didn't exist 5000 years ago, and it's been only about 2000 years that "the world" has hated them. Then there's the philosophical question of which ethnic groups have what sorts of rights to their ancestral homelands. How far back do we go? Maybe we should give that land back to the Canaanites. Should we take Asia Minor away from the Turks and give it back to the Greeks and Armenians they took it from? Or should we give it to the Hittites who had it before that? Should we give central Europe back to the Celts, so they won't be isolated on the British Isles they were driven to? Should European Americans give this land back to the indigenous peoples? But then, how would we adjudicate the rival territorial claims among the various tribes that predated the arrival of Europeans? Maybe we should reconstitute the Neanderthals by cloning the DNA we've found and have all modern humans move back to Africa, so the previous inhabitants can reclaim Europe. Every inhabited region of the world has at some point been taken by force from one ethnic group by another. There are no simple answers to such questions; they have to be worked out by the people themselves.
i think we have enough dysfunctional and dangerous Muslims countries, i don't think we need to throw another one into the mix. Also they want their country to be where Israel is. Lets face it where Israel is currently is the ancestral land of the Israelites and if land belongs to anyone then that section of land definitively belongs to Israel not Palestine. The USA should definitely not support this bill especially considering Israel is a close and very, very, powerful ally. Finally granting the Israelites a country was meant for retribution for the world hating on the Jews for the last 5000 years. Until Palestine and Israel can work out their differences and Muslim countries can start to show they can run a country successful Palestine should not become an independent state.
It really doesn't matter so long as Israel, the moslems, the US, etc, etc each envision themselves as The Chosen Ones.
The Middle East is poster child for the horrendous failures of pretentious religions.
A blood-soaked self-anointed sandbox game.
Sure there's a conspiracy, Candice, but it's not a secret one. The plutocrats and their dupes (Grover Norquist, the Tea Party, et al.) want to shrink government to the point where it can't effectively regulate their predatory, parasitic businesses and keep them from hoarding so much wealth. They've said as much, though not in such stark terms. One of the ways they're pursuing their agenda is by encouraging scary conspiracy theories about big government (e.g., Obama is a marxist; Obama is a muslim and was born in Kenya; 9/11 was an inside job). As the wealth gap has grown, so has our collective anxiety, which makes us susceptible to such things. If we could all lighten up and let go of our anxiety, we'd be able to think clearly enough to see through the bullshit (e.g., islam and marxism are mutually contradictory doctrines, so it's preposterous to think Obama adheres to both). That's why it's so vitally important that we all take time to have fun, preferably together.
Sorry-previous post intended for the brownie section.
"In fact, they usually use conspiracy theories to distract people from their power grabs. When tyrrany comes to America, it will be aided and abetted by folks who buy into and repeat alarmist, inflamatory rhetoric, like you've been doing."
Steve,
The conspiracy is happening. Right here, right now. I do agree with your point about attempting to scare the public silly, however people need to be aware that they are powerful and there is something they can do about 'the big take over'.
What needs to be done is to choke the invasive corporations out of the picture. Take away what it is that makes them 'so powerful'.
I also agree with you that people need to realize that they are self suffiicient as you demonstrate in your conversations. However there are people with responsiblilities like children. People with children are most likely the ones to fall prey into this serville propaganda as they are fed commercialism and they eat it right up.
Now take these brownies for instance. While they might be tastey, they are nothing but gooey muck that alone would sit as a glob in your digestive system. But since they added fiber it makes them good for you. In order to sell them General Mills is paralleling them to hash brownies of the 60's and 70's.
Nice strategy (funny video) but really do you think we are that stupid?
next.
Kim, regarding your point (to the extent it exists), dictators and other oppressive regimes do not rise to power by distracting people with amusements, as you seem to be suggesting. They do it by stoking people's anxiety and fomenting fear, hatred and resentment. That's what Hitler did. That's how Marxism took hold in various places. That's how folks like Gadhafi clung to power for so long. In fact, they usually use conspiracy theories to distract people from their power grabs. When tyrrany comes to America, it will be aided and abetted by folks who buy into and repeat alarmist, inflamatory rhetoric, like you've been doing.
See what I mean?
Steve the cynic is right on one point..lets all just become sheep and ignore the real threats to our country so we don't get stressed...seriously? That is how the Progressives took over the DFL. The media ignored the background and friends of Obama and he got elected..NOW we have change..as in 870 billion to 1.4 billion this year and each year plus ( four times the damage done over the past three years so Obama really is Bush on steroids with spending.
How many know that this past week, that the current admin pressured Israel Prime Minister NOT to mention abolishing USA aid to Palestine or risk losing their vote to prevent Palestine gaining statehood? If this was 1937, would we invite Hitler to speak in New York? Nope, bey we have liberal Columbia University inviting Ackmendinajhad to speak there!! I have since pulled all my usual donations to all Obama groups and liberal Progressive anti american groups including Planned Parenthood .
Why would you think that, Alison? That post was only half in jest. The excessive anxiety and seriousness afflicting our society right now really is sucking the joy out of our common life. The nastiness of our politics is destroying long-standing friendships, not just in Wisconsin. In my face-to-face conversations these days, I feel like I'm entering a minefield whenever anyone asks, "What do you think about......?" There's no safe answer to such questions anymore. (And some folks wonder why aliases are necessary here!)
Simple amusement with other people is an effective remedy to this kind anxiety. But there's a vicious cycle. The more anxious we become, the less inclined we are to seek amusement, because we tend to feel lazy, or insufficiently vigilant to the supposed threats the purveyors of conspiracy theories try to alarm us with, especially if the only way we can think of to find amusement involves spending money. Having fun is vitally important, and all the more so as economy worsens around the world.
When you open the newspaper, read the comics first, and see if it doesn't help you keep everything else in perspective.
\\(Removing my tongue from my cheek now.... or maybe not.)
Glad you added that, Steve. I was beginning to think someone hijacked your name!
So, what you're saying, zaaart, is "If everyone would just become like me, all our problems would be solved"? BTW, your assertion is factually incorrect. The Nazi genocide was not about religion. Stalin's murderous purges (which killed more innocents than the Nazis did) were in part anti-religious, perpetrated by an officially atheist regime. Likewise Pol Pot's "killing fields." The American Civil War (still the bloodiest conflict in US history) was not about religion. And down through history, the conflicts that were nominally about religion almost always had deeper roots in economics and ethnic conflict, with religion being misused as an excuse.
Christians, Muslims & Jews can unite by becoming atheists. More lives have been lost "in the name of god" than all world tragedies combined.
I think MPR asks divisive questions like this to provoke heated, incendiary rhetoric as a way of distracting people from more important things, like watching Cheech & Chong movies. Wake up, people! There's obviously an international cabal working behind the scenes to enslave us all by addicting us to fear and hatred and depriving us of laughter, joy and amusement. It's an anxiety-resentment complex that's greedy for power. The time has come to rise up and resist. Sing a song! Tell a joke! Read a good novel! Give someone a hug! Consider the lilies!
Peace through joy!
(Removing my tongue from my cheek now.... or maybe not.)
The Palistinans can't even agree among themselves about what statehood is all about. While Mahmud Abbas is a "moderate" the other half of the Palistineans are governed by Hamas, a terrorist organization. This group openly advocates the destruction of Israel. How does one reconcille peace with this notion?
Since the Israelis left Gaza, the Palestinans destroyed working factories there, set up bases to fire rockets into Israel, and has no justice system.
Seems to me that they should learn to work out their own problems and live peacefully with each other. Then they can ask for a negotiated peace with Israel.
Without a negotiated peace, war is inevitable.
It looks like there will be no vote due to Quartet Agreement per FP Turtle Bay blog:
http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/
EAL
However, have the guts to ask a basic question on a personal level, "If your next door neighbor had a charter that called for the destruction of you and your family, what course of action would you take?"
Margienal action.
The question should be, Should an outside force put an end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israelis and should an outside force enable the Palestinians to have their own state. My answer is an emphatic yes.
No political leader currently holding office in the United States has the courage or the political capital to engineer any kind of a peace settlement. When Congress gave the racist, bigoted, and intransigent Netanyahu more than twenty standing ovations, it demonstrated that it is not capable of playing a constructive role in a peace process. (By the way The New Yorker ran an excellent piece a few months ago documenting the racism, bigotry, and intransigence of Netanyahu--just in case anyone was so naive they couldn't see it.)
The Palestinians really have no alternative but to go to the UN. Right-wing Israelis will continue focusing on ethnic cleansing,and the racists and bigots in Congress will continue to insist on providing Israel with the economic, diplomatic, and military support the Israelis need to do that.
Peace movements and organizations inside Israel and the US (for example, Americans for Peace Now, Code Pink, and J Street) have not experienced any success in trying to move Israel and the US to initiate a meaningful peace process with the Palestinians.
As for those of you who say that the problem is Hamas, think about this: Hamas would not exist if the Palestinian Authority and Fatah and the PLO had something to show for its efforts to work with the US and Israel over the last few decades.
Finally, we need to do something to cut our military budget, which is roughly the equivalent of all of the military budgets of all of the other countries in the world combined. A lot of that budget pays for the consequences of our behavior in the Middle East over the last several decades, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a significant piece of that.
Do we really want to reduce the nation's debt? How about if we try to stop giving the rest of the world reasons to hate us? Let's change our behavior.
It's time we try to understand that violence, war, and terrorism all have causes. They don't just spring up ex nihilo.
Pardon my frankness, for bleeding heart Democrats / Progressives / Liberasl, but there are nations, organizations and individuals who either do not recognize Israel or call for the destruction of Israel. This is not to condone all actions by Israel, However, have the guts to ask a basic question on a personal level, "If your next door neighbor had a charter that called for the destruction of you and your family, what course of action would you take?"
YES. To deny statehood to the Palestinians is to deny reality. Come to think of it, we've become pretty good at denying reality. Just look at the way the Israelis treat the Palistinians and you can see a big part of why the crisis never ends over there. There are many decent Israelis who agree with this.
Lee
Yes. And the only thing standing in the way is the Palestinian leadership.
As Israel was created by the United Nations -- with the expectation there would be a parallel Palestinian state -- so should Palestine be recognized by the UN. The unstable Middle East situation should be telling Israel that its long-term security needs a peace settlement. Recognition of a Palestinian State would demonstrate to Israel that it needs to move forward, not continue its current 'porcupine strategy' of simply expecting peace to break out in the Middle East before it can negotiate.
I'm not making the claim that Hamas is all roses and sunshine, but I will say recognizing statehood is a good step towards getting rid of them. Eliminating extremism will not come by starving a people and allowing Israel to keep their boot firmly on Palestine, but rather through peace, food, and security for the Palestinian people. Israel and Palestine have made it clear that under the current occupation, this is not possible.
Concerning your stats - since 1987, nearly 5 Palestinians have died as a result of the conflict for every Israeli that has lost their life. When it comes to Palestinian children to Israeli children, the ratio is 11:1. None of them needed to die, none of them deserved to die.
No more occupation. No more dead children. No more war.
Jiminie Kimmie!
Too much coffee on lunch break?
Jon and others are totally unaware or are Hamas supporters..or antagonists. Hamas has held an Israel soldier for five years in a dungeon and Hamas has refused he Red cross to have any access..what swell kind people Hamas is? Hamas Palestine has said, " we will not allow any Jew in Palestine." They have stated and passed heir law that no land can ever be sold to any Jew. They have thrown over 1,800 rockets into Israel and bombed Israel school children buses. Look at Lebanon if you need any more evidence of what these terrorist Islamist run countries have done..and you want Palestine to be recognized without change in their government? Wake up.
Jon and others are totally unaware or are Hamas supporters..or antagonists. Hamas has held an Israel soldier for five years in a dungeon and Hamas has refused he Red cross to have any access..what swell kind people Hamas is? Hamas Palestine has said, " we will not allow any Jew in Palestine." They have stated and passed heir law that no land can ever be sold to any Jew. They have thrown over 1,800 rockets into Israel and bombed Israel school children buses. Look at Lebanon if you need any more evidence of what these terrorist Islamist run countries have done..and you want Palestine to be recognized without change in their government? Wake the ___ up.
yes but with one rezervation. Where will the boarders be. we will have 3 territories with nothing connecting them. I would like to see this resovled first.
No, they should have had their own state decades ago. Let them create it now, with the borders they deserve, make have Israel sign an agreement saying Palestine has a right to exist if Palestine must do so for Israel.
Heck, maybe we can all sign such agreements. Maybe then we can end war.
Anyone who remotely thinks palestine should have statehood is either a terrorist supporter or has simply no knowledge of the world.
Here are the facts at the UN: The UN is corrupt for how else would these appointments ever been allowed?
Appointed_
Lebanon to the Security Council; a known terrorist state..over run by militant Islam. See Act for America.com and get a clue.
Libya's Qudafi was appointed to the Human Right Council..really!
Any support of Hamas run Palestine is treason to our country.
The Question should be:
" Does Palestine have any right to ask for statehood when their ruling Government, Hamas, the terrorist active force, repeatedly demands the annihilation of our closest ally, Israel? "
American Jews have already spoke out. Look at the latest election results where the dominant DFL NY district voted for a Tea Party candidate and he was also endorsed by Mayor Koch a stout DFL supporter. Unheard of in our history where the DFL now turn against the Obama preference.
I agree that it is high time for Palestinians to have their own state and be recognized as a member state of the United Nations. Palestinians should also agree that Israel has a right to exist. However, I also agree that Palestinians are more threatened than Israel, and that Israel, while saying it wants to negotiate peace and Palestinian statehood, keeps stalling the peace negotiation process and taking more Palestinian land.
Like many other middle-of-the-road Americans, I used to support Israel, but also like other many other centrists, my views have changed. Israel likes to think of itself as David, but these days they are more like Goliath.
Yes. And GaryF, Isreal must do the same regarding Palestine.
Palestinians should have their own country like every nation in the word. Israel has been denying the Palestinians to live as a sovereign nation for over sixty years now. It's time to have their own country since the negotiations are going no where for over twenty years. Go Palestine!
Yes! There is no reason why this needs to continue to be blocked. Israel exists and has the right to exist but so do the Palestinians have the right to live freely.
I agree they should admit publicly that Israel has the right to exist. Right now the people of Israel are much less threatened than the Palestinians.
ABSOLUTELY!!! The Palestinian people have suffered long enough! The United States citizens have such a Zionist bias. Rarely is the full and complete truth told regarding both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian issue.
First they must publicly admit and put into their constitution that Israel has a right to exist.
Second, they must teach their children that Israel has a right to exist.
Then, maybe.
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