How should the United States handle long-term undocumented residents?
Posted at 5:00 AM on June 24, 2011
by Eric Ringham
(37 Comments)
Filed under: Immigration
Jose Antonio Vargas, a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, revealed last weekend that he is an undocumented immigrant who arrived in the United States as a child. Today's Question: How should the United States handle long-term undocumented residents?
Comments (37)
The answer is simple. In this country, no is supposed to be above the law. So Jose Antonio Vargas should have to do one of the following:
1] Obtain a visa according to the laws of this county
2] Obtain a visa, start the process of becoming a citizen of the U.S., according to the laws of this country
3] Be deported to his home county, according to the laws of this country
If Jose Antonio Vargas did this in any other country on this little planet, he would be in a lot of trouble. If an American did this in his Jose's country, would that American get away with it?
Mick J, you're probably not a fan of the blues, then. Take my earlier comments as a lament, remembering the days when truth and justice seemed to matter a lot more in American politics than they do today.
I'm sorry Steve, and I know it's been a few days, but I can just hope you'll read this. Maybe I'm feeling argumentative, but I just had to respond.
First off, if we're going to just define things on your terms, then sure, you weren't being ideological. I define ideology as a system of beliefs, or as the dictionary defines it:
"the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group. "
I think cynicism and negativity qualify under the "large group" clause.
I'm not saying you should put a positive spin on things, I'm saying you should be more positive, and don't think I mean lie to yourself or others. I'm not objecting to you making me feel bad. I'm objecting to the idea that "truth and justice are irrelevant in American politics". How else do you explain Gay marriage in NY? I don't know too many gay "plutocrats" (to borrow a favorite word of yours) pulling any strings to make that happen. Going back further, civil rights? Women's suffrage? Freeing the slaves? None of these things had anything to do with financial or corrupt interests, and to see them as anything but triumphs of human freedom is nothing but unadulterated, unnecessary, unprovoked negativity.
What's more, your original statement can be accurately summarized thus: "American politics is corrupt and broken, and any attempt at fixing problems is irrelevant because it will never happen anyway." I support cynicism or brutal truth telling if it's constructive, but that is simply not. It's defeatist, pointless, and, yes, negative.
I guess my final point, in closing, is if you can't say anything constructive, don't say anything at all. Or to paraphrase an old proverb, "If you're saying something can't be done, make sure to stay out of the way of those who are doing it."
@Kevin,
If you want to look at something that will make your mouth drop look up the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
I can't seem to find the words that describe my thoughts on that one.
Makes one wonder....how many of us have undocumented forefathers in our family tree??
That old phrase W.O.P. (without papers)comes to mind. Hmmm.
One can easily verify it, using any ancestor search service. I've done so- and I've asked many GOP folks if they have the nuts to do the same. Nose to nose I tell them-" If you don't have your own papers on you- don't attempt to discuss this with me!!"
DIRECT ACTION!!
Glenn
Isn't there something akin to statute of limitation?
Honestly, we are after all the land with the statue of liberty proudly proclaiming:
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”
There is something hypocritical about this protectionist attitude. If only TRUE American's are allowed in the USA, then all Europeans need to leave....
After all it was the Native Americans who really discovered America first...
nice answer Steve
The US is a "global laughing stock" for lots of reasons, but our immigration policy is not one of them. High on the list are the existence of homelessness, the fact that anyone goes without health care, the arrogance of our foreign policy, and the fact that we seem to think military action is ever a solution to a problem.
//The US is a global laughing stock becuase we have ignored this issue for so long and it signals that as a culture we condone those who are persistent and vocal in cheating the system..
-that makes no sense at all.
Culture has nothing to do with it.
Step back and re-cringe that thought.
My heart goes out to those who are affected; however I do believe that since they are illegal, they must be deported and the children born here as a result of illegal entry must also be considered illegal.
It isn't fair to those who invested patience, time and resources by immigrating in a legal manner.
I am in support that the law needs to be readdressed; however just because it will be difficult locate and painful to deport those affected it must be done. The US is a global laughing stock becuase we have ignored this issue for so long and it signals that as a culture we condone those who are persistent and vocal in cheating the system..
@ KK
I believe* Michael* was being sarcastic.
The "previously undocumented tax" is the best idea listed. Provide a simple path to citizenship, give them a legal SSN with an asterisk, and make them pay additional income taxes for a significant amount of time (25 years? 35 years?) as an incentive to legal citizenship.
It would be nice if people would get the facts before they opine on these questions. Here's the original source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/magazine/my-life-as-an-undocumented-immigrant.html
Having read that, I'm surprised (NOT!) that some folks are making comments about Vargas' kids. If you'd read the article, you'd know that he's also gay and childless.
And the 14th Amendment, granting citizenship to everyone born in the US, was not written by the "founding fathers." It was adopted after the Civil War, and the main point was to grant citizenship to former slaves.
Mick J, "negativity" is not an ideology. If you accuse me of making rhetorical overstatement, I might plead nolo contendere, but what I wrote was basically true, isn't it? Was it "negative"? Perhaps, but it wasn't ideological. It's ideology that insists, "You shouldn't say that because..." and finishes with a reason other than some variant of "it's not true," or "it would incite violence, hatred, prejudice, etc." I reject the idea that I should put a "positive" spin on things because otherwise it might make people feel bad. I think there are some things we should feel bad about. The fact that truth and justice are irrelevant in American politics is one of those things. I'm glad to year you usually agree with me, but popularity is not what I'm doing this for.
I support Kathy's comment:
//Apply for citizenship. Check legal record. US present a simple path to follow into application for citizenship. Especially a college bound citizen.
A simple path to citizenship would take care of the many problems and wasted time and money involved around 'aliens' ie: INS investigations, unneccessary police involvement.
@mickJ
//Plus, nothing will ever change for the better if everyone's a cynic.
cynicism and satire have been one of the most useful tools in political motivation and change thoughout history.
"One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." - MLK
I think this quote might apply to Jose Antonio Vargas, and it's also something to think about to those who posted some variation on "The law is the law and shouldn't be broken".
I was taught by my parents and I taught my children to obey the law. If we disagree with a law, (or a rule) speak out; work to change the law through peaceful ways. If I use a fake Drivers License to drive a car, purchase alcohol or buy an airline ticket, I have broken the law. It's that simple. If you enter any country illegally, you must pay for breaking their law. There are no exceptions, no valid reasons to excuse the act. One law is not more or less susceptable to consequences of breaking than any another.
Annex Mexico. Give all of the un-employed people military training and then have them hunt and "capture" the drug cartels. Wait, that was how we created the taliban and al qaeda. OK,, rethink, Annex Mexico - and .... bring all the troops from Afghan, and Iraq "home" to correct the rampant economic problems in the questeionable-medical-suplements market of the 51st state of Mexico.
I don't think there is an easy answer to this problem. It's too complicated and too much at stake for all involved. We'll still be grappling with it 50 years from now.
If they get educated or fight for our country let them stay. If not, send them back. We need intelligent and motivated people to come to our country and work to advance our economy. They in return will help businesses and our economy grow, spend money, and most importantly right now BUY HOUSES.
@Ashly Davis
RE: "Seriously what makes you think that the Philippines, where this young man was born would take his children in?"
Because in most of the world outside the United States, the citizenship of a baby is determined by the citizenship of its parents, not the spot where it happens to be born. Children of Philippine Citizens are also Philippine Citizens.
@StC That sounds all well and good, and I typically agree with your posts, but often you just come off depressing and hopeless, especially in your earlier post. There is nothing illuminating about saying:
"Sadly, what should happen has never been a guiding principle in American public policy. Truth and justice are the American way only in Superman fiction. The truth doesn't vote. Justice doesn't make campaign contributions. Elections are won by those who are best able to demagogue emotionally charged issues with vindictive fear mongering."
If I believed all of that I would probably have to hang myself, because there's just no point to living in such a terrible world. Your post represents just another ideology of negativity, which is not productive, enlightening, or interesting.
I'm on your side most of the time. As you said, "None are more blind than those who refuse to see." So I feel obligated to point out when you cross the line into negativity and refuse to see anything resembling optimism.
Mick J., you miss the point. A cynic, as I use the word, is one who believes all ideology is bullshit. I'm just calling attention to the bullshit in the (perhaps vain) hope that we will stop stepping in it someday. None are more blind than those who refuse to see.
@ Thomas Shaw
The amount of hateful and ignorant Americans nowadays is unbelievable. Seriously what makes you think that the Philippines, where this young man was born would take his children in? Is the US going to change their constitution as well. Please use your common sense people!
"the provision that persons born in the United States are automatically citizens"- it's what our founding fathers wrote. Just stick to READING THE CONSTITUTION. - Knowledge is key :)
Apply for citizenship. Check legal record. US present a simple path to follow into application for citizenship. Especially a college bound citizen. We need to be responsible throughout lhe lives of our undocumented guests. For example, in our development, many of the roofers and landscape employees seem to be immigrants. Are their employers responsibly following labor laws? Do our public schools use legal routes to free and reduced lunch applications? Food for thought. Save on tax spending. Simplify and open processes. We are the land of the free and the brave.
Teacher in St. Paul
@mickJ
//But there are too many wonderful things in this world to be jaded and angry.
ummm...wonderful things?
fireworks?
the ability to take someone's home away from them?
They should be returned to their home countries. They are here illegally. The government pursues criminals for years. The same should be done with undocumented persons with children born in the United States. The laws should be changed eliminating the provision that persons born in the United States are automatically citizens. Illegal is illegal. No exceptions just as in any other part of or legal system.
@ Rich
I think the department that needs policing would be the Human Resources Departments and those that employ them and the integrity they claim to uphold. I have witnessed first hand misplacement and lost private documents that contain SSN, Bank account numbers ect. Only to be given as an answer that there must be a ghost that took them.
In addition to increased scrutiny how about looking into fixing that ever so fallible Bureau of Criminal Apprehension background check servicee? As it is now if one character is off the check will come clean where a potential employee of, say, a gun toting security guard or potential teacher by the name of Margaret who supplies a name of Margarett (mispelled with extra t) and has a history of crime will come up clean.
Boy, you sure live up to your name today, StC. I never understood the point to cynicism. Sure you feel smart, and get to think you're better than other people. And in some cases cynicism is appropriate. But there are too many wonderful things in this world to be jaded and angry. Plus, nothing will ever change for the better if everyone's a cynic.
To answer the question, we should provide them a path to citizenship. I never really understood why so many "illegal" immigrants live in the land of the free, melting pot, country of immigrants, etc in the first place. Why is it so hard to immigrate to a country built on immigration? It seems pretty simple to me - let anyone who wants to live here do so freely, especially if they're paying taxes. I would expect nothing less from a country with such high ideals of personal freedom.
"How should the United States handle long-term undocumented residents?" How should it handle anything? The question is irrelevant. Sadly, what should happen has never been a guiding principle in American public policy. Truth and justice are the American way only in Superman fiction. The truth doesn't vote. Justice doesn't make campaign contributions. Elections are won by those who are best able to demagogue emotionally charged issues with vindictive fear mongering. The case of Jose Antonio Vargas should be taken as evidence that our immigration policies are irrational. But that probably won't happen.
With compassion.
We are the only creatures on Earth to require "documentation" for birth, migration, and death.
To heck with that noise. Let the people who want to work work, let the people who want to hire hire and let the rest of us continue to draw our shrinking salaries while we comment on blogs.
My guess is that most people who say "go after the employers" are pro-reform folks. They know full well that if the gummint did go after the employers, the employers would scream bloody murder, perhaps creating pressure for some kind of sensible immigration policy. In short, they don't really mean it, at least not in the long term.
How about policing the people who hire the undocumented immigrants? This seems like the single biggest pressure point.
Punish the people who create the incentive, not those who (rationally) follow it...
The free movement of goods, services, labor, capital and ideas is best for the economy. Dialing back immigration requires expanding the scope and cost of the federal government at a time when we can't afford healthcare for future seniors. Since Republicans don't seem to care about losing votes over this and Americans don't care about losing Republicans so why sweat the demographics?
We should force them to baby sit their grand kids in the suburbs.
"previously undocumented tax" ?
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