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News Cut Category Archive: The political conventions



RNC: Who was in charge?

Posted at 1:46 PM on November 14, 2008 by Bob Collins (1 Comments)
Filed under: The political conventions

Last summer, I covered an event outside the Xcel Energy Center in which the top brass of area law enforcement announced they had a deal for enough cops for the Republican National Convention.

Here's the image I took of the event.

You'll have to take my word for it that Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher wasn't there and it wasn't until I heard MPR reporter Laura Yuen's story on Thursday that I took notice of that.

Chief John Harrington and Fletcher, according to Laura's story, were clashing around the time over how many cops would be needed and what form of presence they'd assume.

He said while the public may have been surprised by the intensity of police presence downtown, it's probably because residents paid attention to early assurances from the department that anarchists would not be causing safety problems -- assurances that, as it turned out, were based on faulty intelligence.

Still unclear, however, is who was in charge during the Republican National Convention?

In the second part of Yuen's series this afternoon, Fletcher says he had nothing to do with the most controversial aspects of the RNC police actions, Harrington will say it was Fletcher's department who took the lead in investigations that led to the pre-RNC raids.

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Identifying RNC victims

Posted at 7:57 AM on November 12, 2008 by Bob Collins (8 Comments)
Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

Last week, the St. Paul Police and Ramsey County Sheriff's Office asked the public for help in identifying a man who was apparently assaulted on the first day of the Republican National Convention.

protester_id.jpg

Maybe they're getting somewhere. Maybe not. An e-mail today claims:

I dont know if you guys know who the victim in the RNC protest is yet but he is my husband's uncle, (name withheld). He is the man with the white shirt being assaulted by the rioters and I'm not sure if he has filed any charges yet, but I believe that he should. We are a military family and I believe that, from the sign he was holding, apparently fell to the ground as he is being assaulted, he was there to voice his opinions about military servicemen and families like us.

I'm trying to contact him today.

Update 10:09 a.m.: Bogus phone number

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Catching up with Jim

Posted at 7:52 AM on November 7, 2008 by Bob Collins (0 Comments)
Filed under: Politics, The political conventions

Of all the people I met in this campaign season, none was more impressive than Jim Felder of Ohio, who was so moved by Barack Obama in the late stages of the primary season that he and his wife jumped in the car and headed to the Democratic National Convention in Denver, just to be in the same city.

He was more than content to hand out maps to visitors:

After Tuesday night's Obama victory, I called Jim but he wasn't home. Yesterday he sent me an e-mail:


It was a real pleasure to receive a folllow -up message from you! Your interview with me made me a"star"(?) here in my hometown(smile). It was seen by many of my friends.You gave me good karma, because as we were walking away from your interview, my niece and I were approached by a young woman from California doing a documentary, and she asked if we would consent to an interview - of course we could not turn her down(another smile).Then after the big doings at Invesco Field, and about 1 AM as I was walking into my hotel lobby, an Irish Union official asked if he could interview me and again I agreed. I have not seen any of these interviews, but hope lives!

We have been on cloud 9 since Tuesday evening. The local county(Greene) Democrats had an election party which we attended for a short time, and then a large group of us left for a private home where we made a lot of joyous noise that lasted until about 2 AM. At 12 noon on Wednesday, we attended a celebration at a restaurant/bar located in our downtown district(Our village is less than 4000 population).The final event was a quiet(?) dinner party at the home of a dentist friend who lives outside our village. The last few days have been a blast!

I believe that the right person was elected and with time, he will do great things for this country and repair the damage done by the present politicians.

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City sued over RNC raid

Posted at 5:54 PM on October 9, 2008 by Bob Collins (3 Comments)
Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

According to a news release that's crossed the inbox, lawyers for a homeowner in St. Paul are suing the city over a police raid on the eve of the Republican National Convention.

Says the release:

The first lawsuit resulting from the police invasion of a St. Paul home prior to the Republican National Convention will be announced at a press conference October 10. Notice will be served on the city of Saint Paul that lawyers representing Michael Whalen will seek $250,000 in damages. Whalen's duplex on Iglehart Avenue was cordoned off by St. Paul police working with the FBI and Homeland Security people. Whalen and his tenants and guests were held at gunpoint for several hours, not allowed to leave - and no one allowed to enter.

It has not been disclosed what prompted the raid. An FBI agent (perhaps Scott Zimmerman) had requested entry an hour earlier. When denied he apparently called the St. Paul authorities who sent two dozen or so officers into the streets, alleys and entrances of Whalen's home.

When these officers also were denied entry, they held the premises under armed guard while police tried to create a legitimate reason for an invasion. After an hour or two, Officer Langfellow swore that Mr. Whalen had supported Irish Independence some 20 years ago, had co-owned a bookstore for a whole year with Sarah Jane Olsen also 20 years ago, had recently failed to put his address numbers on one half of the duplex and had received heavy boxes by US Mail.

The sworn affidavit, supporting the request for a search warrant, also contained a straight-out falsehood about Whalen's activities that day. Amazingly, a judge of the District Court found all this sufficient to issue the warrant - for the wrong address! The items listed in the warrant for seizure did not include Irish literature, letters from Ms Olson, unused address numbers nor the vegan literature in the heavy boxes.

It might be noted that Whalen's guests included journalists who are part of the growing people's independent press movement, which documents and web-publishes police abuse around this land of ours. Some of these folks were raided again elsewhere and some were arrested as they documented the new face of St. Paul, formerly the most livable city in America.

Mr. Whalen is represented by attorneys Ted Dooley and Peter Nickitas, both members of the National Lawyers Guild. Dooley will be among the speakers at the press conference.

On Thursday, MPR's Laura Yuen took a look at St. Paul's protection against lawsuits like this, an insurance policy the city required the organizers of the convention to buy.

The city required the Minneapolis-St. Paul host committee to buy insurance costing $1.2 million that would pay up to $10 million in damages. The policy doesn't have a limit on legal expenses.

That means St. Paul won't have to tap its self-insurance fund unless the damages exceed $10 million. The policy also covers other cities that provided officers for security during the RNC.


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Live-blogging: Journalists and cops: What's next?

Posted at 5:06 PM on September 22, 2008 by Bob Collins (17 Comments)
Filed under: Media, The political conventions


Last week's announcement that St. Paul won't prosecute journalists who were swept up in the Republican National Convention protests by police really hasn't alleviated a lot of the hard feelings. On the one hand, police have said it's too difficult to tell "credentialed" journalists from the "self credentialed" ones. On the other hand, it wasn't that hard once they were detained. All the cops had to do was read the credential.

Tonight, the Society of Professional Journalists in Minnesota is holding a forum with several journalists who were arrested, as well as Asst. Police Chief Matt Bostrom of St. Paul and Deputy Mayor Ann Mulholland.

Al Tompkins from the Poytner Institute is moderating and says he wants these questions answered:

* What do the police want media to know about their mission in events like this.
* How can journalists cover important stories like this and not get arrested.
* Should be tiered credentialing for traditional and non-traditional media.

If you're into drinking games, I suggest "Amy Goodman" as the keywords. I look forward to a good discussion with you in the comments section below.

Live-blogging at 7 p.m.

6:58 p.m. - Looks like about 100 people in attendance, at least one Minneapolis police officer in the audience. I suppose it's a discussion for another day but if you ever want to see an example of the lack of diversity in the media, forums and journalist get-togethers are a good start.

7:04 p.m. - Nicole Garrison-Sprenger of the Pioneer Press opens with a nod to Rick Kupchella of KARE -- the former SPJ president. "This has been an eye-opening experience... the whole RNC," Kupchella says. "We seldom see ourselves on a stage like this and seldom see the friction we saw on the streets of St. Paul." Introducing panel, and emphasizing that most journalists covering the RNC weren't arrested.

Jonathan Malat, photographer for KARE, is also on the panel. He was arrested on final night of RNC. Says the KARE Web site:

"I never saw any excessive force other than it was just loud and chaotic," said Malat about the tactics used to push people toward the bridge. Earlier police had given several orders for the crowd to disperse. "I was just there to cover the event," explained Malat.

7:09 p.m. - Al Tompkins of Poynter Institute is moderating. "We not here for a witch hunt," he says. "We can learn a lot if we listen to each other." He tells Mulholland and Boston, "it took a lot of guts for you to be here."

7:12 p.m. - Tompkins is playing various media Web site video of protests, including the breaking of the window at Macy's on Monday of the RNC. Video from Fox 9 shows cop being knocked down and pepper-spraying the crowd.

7:16 p.m. - Jonathan Malat (KARE photographer) describes the Thursday protest near the Capitol. The protest was running late, he says. It didn't get going until 4:30 and 15 minutes later the police said the permit expired at 5 p.m. "My goal was the same that day as every day: to document what was going on in the community." He says he had no indication he would be arrested. (See Kupchella's blog | Video )

7:21 p.m. - "What didn't we see in the video?" Tompkins asks deputy police chief Matt Bostrom. "When there is an opportunity to march and people don't take that -- it was intentional that the marchers didn't leave on time nor on the designated march route -- ... they made it clear early on that this would be the particular rally not to bring your kids too." (I think he's referring to this)

"No one from this group asked for an extension or a new route. We were prepared to grant permits on the fly," he said. "They wanted to turn us against each other."

7:25 p.m. Tompkins displays a quote from MinnPost from Bostrom (which he says "is close") from last December in which he appeared to criticize Boston in 2004 for muzzling protest.

Bostrom says officers in St. Paul are trained to allow the media to do their job.

7:27 p.m. - This would be a good time at the forum for Tompkins to ask, "hey, what happened?" Instead, he's laying a court-like foundation on what is freedom of the press.

Mulholland says Mayor Chris Coleman believes the officers did what they felt they needed to do to maintain public safety. "Should they be treated specially and different than anyone else in a public safety incident is what we need to talk about," she says.

"There's a special role to make sure media has access and the information they need. Having watched many hours of video, I am hard-pressed to think we didn't give great access to the media during the course of the convention," she said.

7:32 p.m. Tompkins shows op-ed piece in Pioneer Press from Mayor Chris Coleman, in which Coleman refers to his feeling while "watching news stories." How would the mayor have felt that if it weren't for the press, Tompkins asked. Gotcha.

Mulholland says there were 10,000 people exercising their right to have their voices heard, but were overwhelmed by a small group. Tompkins asked if her boss believes there was a legitimate reason for the journalists to be "there."

"I believe it's important for the journalists to be wherever people gather lawfully," Mulholland says.

Bostrom says the video Coleman referred to wasn't from journalists, it was from those spy cameras the city erected.

So here we are: Do journalists have a right to be in a place where a crime is being committed? "How close? And when does it impair public safety" Mulholland asks.

7:36 p.m. Mara Gottfried of the Pioneer Press is asked why she wasn't arrested. She notes that she, too, was one of the "ride-along" journalists on Thursday. But she says she was able to watch the protest at which Amy Goodman's producers were arrested without a problem. She also covered the Rage Against the Machine concert in Minneapolis. At one point she was blocked by police, and was joined by two PiPress reporters. The two reporters with her were ordered to the ground. They complied. When they told police they were reporters with the Pioneer Press, "they were released within a minute," she said.

7:42 p.m. - How do you know who the "real" photographers are? Tompkins puts up a picture with different-looking people taking pictures (I've done this riff already). Deputy Mayor Mulholland: "I don't know who the journalist is, so we treat everyone the same."

7:44 p.m. The story of Evan Vucci, the head of AP's Washington bureau is being discussed. He was "picked up and slammed to the ground" but when he showed his police credentials (White House, Secret Service), he was released. AP Minneapolis boss

"What kind of discretion does an officer have?' Tompkins asked Bostrom. "If someone disobeys a lawful order, they shall be arrested," he says. "But the officer... has discretion."

"What would it take for a journalist to preserve such a thing," Tompkins asked.

"If they were to release someone who was a criminal hiding behind a media credential, they have to be accountable for that," he answers... sort of.

Pyle says an AP photographer who was arrested, may have been a victim of a suburban police officer. He also noted that the photo that the photographer -- Matt Rourke -- was used by St. Paul police in a public call to help find information about some criminal activity during the protest.

7:59 p.m. "A lawful order," that's the key phrase so far. First Amendment attorney Mark Anfinson says if police issue a "lawful order" to disperse, journalists have to disperse and "very much like a combat zone, journalists take on the risk... It's hard to see where police violated rights."

Malat points out that when they were told to disperse and he asked where they should go, police officers told him "the way out is the (Marion St.) bridge." That's where he was arrested.

7:55 p.m. We're sort of flailing around issues here. Now we're on "who's a journalist?" again. Anfinson says journalists adhere to ethical codes of behavior, I don't think you can bestow that upon people who just call themselves 'journalists' for convenience."

7:57 p.m. Caroline Lowe from WCCO is up now. She's both a journalist and a sworn police officer. She, too, says she and her team were given clear orders but many of the journalists were not given a "clear way out." She says an officer called her the next day and said she thought she'd have to hit Lowe with her stick.

7:59 p.m. - Bostrom giving more details of the number of times protesters were warned they were engaging in "unlawful assembly." He says they made two announcements, then walked around the people in the street and told them to sit down, they were under arrest."

Another group then took a run at Marion Street and were turned back. They then blocked University. "No one was getting arrested for going east or west," he said.

Malat disagrees. He says officers were advancing from both the east and west. Bostrom disagrees with his disagreement.

Bostrom reveals that guns were taken from some in the crowd.

"That's a lie," someone in the audience yells, before Caroline Lowe says she saw one.

8:06 p.m. Back to "who's a journalist?" again. Chuck Olsen from The Uptake is talking about his live video via cellphone. He identifies himself as a "citizen journalist" and Tompkins asks him what that is. "Do you adhere to a code of ethics?" Tompkins asked.

I guess where we're going here is: are The Uptake journalists journalists?

"Yeah," Olsen said.

Mulholland doesn't answer the question. "I would ask the journalists in the room," she says.

Tompkins doesn't let her off the hook. "Was the mayor talking about him when he talked about journalists?"

"I think the mayor was talking about people trying to tell a story," she responds.

8:11 p.m. Tompkins is now playing a video from Pepperspray Productions, a group with an agenda, of course. Are they journalists?

"Is Fox News?" someone shoults.

Comment: Since the St. Paul cops have already mentioned that the reason so many journalists got swept up is because they couldn't tell who was a "real" journalist and who wasn't, it doesn't make a lot of sense here to run Mulholland and Bostrom through some sort of rhetorical exercise designed to make the point that it's hard to tell?

8:16 p.m. - Charlie Underwood jumps up from the audience. He asks Tompkins if he's trying to establish a separate category for people who don't get pepper sprayed. "If what the police did was wrong to you, it's wrong" to everybody."

8:18 p.m. - "All of us have a right to be on the street. I'm a member of an alternative media and I have a right and responsibility to communicate (the story)," Ed Felien from South Side Pride says. "Anyone who is vetted by the police department has given up a point of view."

8:22 p.m. - About a half dozen people have jumped up to the audience microphones to speak. I presume they're interesting in speaking to the allegation that if you get a press pass, you're in the pocket of whomever gave it to you.

8:24 p.m. Jonathan says "police acted very responsibly, given the high intensity level. I put myself in this situation." An audience member, who says she edits Twin Cities Daily Planet, says that treatment wasn't extended to others. "This was largely the province of alternative media. If the alternative media are not out there covering it, can we be sure we're going to get the coverage?"

8:27 p.m. Jason DeRusha of WCCO says "many of us came to a discussion on who gets to be to the 'in' crowd, while the alternative media attendees are advocating no special protections" for that same crowd. So do we journalists get special treatment?

It's a good question which, for some reason, Tompkins chose not to pursue at this time to get more audience reaction.

8:32 p.m. - Audience member who says she used to be an FBI "person " (Update: Jason DeRusha writes to say it was Coleen Rowley) says the independence of the reporter is at crossends of "this special status" you're talking about here.

I'm starting to realize that mainstream journalists seem to be on one side of the room, alternative media on the other. I'm sitting way up in the back, on neither side, by the way.

8:35 p.m. - There doesn't seem to be any argument in the room that if the police tell you "you have to get out of here," then you have to get out of there. So why are we still messing with the 'special attention' thing?

8:37 p.m. - Dan Feidt of Politics in Minnesota asks about the Saturday raid on journalists on Iglehart Avenue. Bostrom refuses comment after saying "a judge signed the warrant." He makes clear that this isn't the discussion he came here for.

8:40 p.m. - Michael of St. Paul asks journalists why people feel such a need to go to alternative media? Makes a big pitch for alternative media. Oh, goodness, what are we doing on that question?

8:42 p.m. - Ron Eibensteiner, former GOP boss in Minnesota says "the St. Paul Police Department did an outstanding job. " So noted. I'm suddenly wondering how that kid in Blaine is doing before the Anoka-Hennepin School Board that might get expelled for having a boxcutter for work in his car at school?

8:50 p.m. Brian Madigan, freelance reporter who says he was caught in "the scrum" on Thursday. He wasn't able to get his material back from the police for several days and wonders why the KARE 11 cameraman was able to get his gear in time for the 10 p.m. news. "They were processing people from one end of the bridge to the other. I was in the middle," Malat said. "When they were about to take me, (Ramsey County) Sheriff (Bob) Fletcher arrived on the scene and asked who were journalists. I raised my hand and a bunch of others raised their hands and there seemed to be a decision that if you had RNC credentials you were put aside from the others."

"it's the first time in my career that so many journalists were involved at the scene of a crime," Bostrom said. "What would you have me do after 4 hours?"

"That's the question of the night," Tompkins says. These SPJ things always get going about 5 minutes before they end. Still, nobody takes Bostrom up on his question.

8:54 p.m. - Photo editor of the Minnesota Daily "testifies" he was treated well. So here's where we are after two hours: "Mainstream journalists" seem pretty satisfied with the way things worked. "Alternative media journalists" are not.

8:56 p.m. - We're back on the merits of embedded reporters. The Twin Cities Media Alliance says the embeds were selected by police (always disquieting to hear people identifying themselves as journalists speak publicly about facts without fully checking, but there you go.) "Why was the embedding program secret?" she asks. "We've seen the results of embedding in Iraq."

Mara Gottfried says she was never told it was secret.

9:02 p.m. KFAI reporter goes off on corporate media. Says mainstream media is lazy and "that's why independent media is happening." Tom Lindner of KARE says he passed on "embedding" because "the rules were so cockamamie. You cover something on Monday, you couldn't air it until Friday." An embedded reporter says he was free to step out from the role at any time.

We're done here. Very little accomplished but it was a good try. In his final comments, Bostrom said "I have zero interest in arresting someone that hasn't done anything" and he seems disappointed -- appropriately so -- that he wanted some suggestions to take back. He didn't get them and it wasn't because he didn't ask.

The continuing conflict between alternative and mainstream media is an intriguing and important discussion, but the effort to make the distinction forced the journalists to defend themselves to each other, when what they should have been doing is standing as journalists to the authorities and trying to recognize a solution to the changing medium landscape.

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RNC fallout is not dispersing

Posted at 8:42 AM on September 18, 2008 by Bob Collins (0 Comments)
Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

The RNC isn't over and won't be for a long time in the Twin Cities. These developments over the last few days are worth noting:

The Minneapolis City Council, according to MPR's Brandt Williams, will get a report on how the police department handled their end of the protests during the Republican National Convention. But the fix may be in since the police department is doing the report and City Council member Paul Ostrow successfully led the the fight to kill an effort by colleague Cam Gordon for a specific accounting.

"I personally don't see a need for council action," Ostrow said. "I'm going to be blunt about this, because I know what the headlines are going to be, 'City Council calls for investigation of Minneapolis police department.' We don't need an investigation of the Minneapolis police department when the Minneapolis police department is already saying they're moving forward on an After Action report."

Here's the current "investigation" tally: St. Paul will have one, but it won't look at claims of police misconduct. A City Council member, who has made no secret of his distaste for the police actions, will hold a hearing.

In Minneapolis, Mayor R.T. Rybak wants the city's civil rights office to review the method of arrests and citations.

Media watcher Brian Lambert, meanwhile, acknowledges he didn't monitor the offerings of local TV and radio stations because he was "in the RNC bubble," but he says he knows what was going on anyway:

The picture here is fairly clear. The RNC with its promotional potential ( ... money) for our cities, combined with over-the-top police state preparation and intimidation, appears to have cowed not just politicians but also quite a few self-professed brave media voices into avoiding anything that could be construed as consorting with or encouraging the enemy.

Lambert, as you probably figured out, says protester voices didn't get heard in the cacophony of chatty police and politicians.

Why were they protesting again?

Impeachment, according to one of them. Jodin Morey posted a long accounting of the Poor People's March -- aka "the Tuesday protest" -- on his blog this week:

Next, the lead organizer got on the shoulders of another marcher and through a bullhorn announced to the protesters that she was going to deliver a citizen's arrest to the doors of the Xcel Energy Center for crimes against humanity. She made us raise our right hands again and promise that we would stay right where we were and to be peaceful. Everyone I could see raised their hands and repeated the promise back to her. Then she went to the free speech gate that separated us from the front doors of the Xcel Energy Center. She spoke through her bullhorn to the nearest police officer, who was dressed in riot gear.

Even the media is going to review its actions in the wake of the protests. The Society Professional Journalists is holding a forum on Monday to examine why journalists got arrested and how reporters can do their jobs in the future. City leaders and law enforcement officials have been invited to participate.

Meanwhile the "let's do this again sometime" movement slowed somewhat on Wednesday when St. Paul business owners got together to discuss their experiences. Said one business owner:


"We should have been told that the delegates were going to get in their buses, and get bused right to the front door, and right after the event, they were going to be bused right from the front door of the Xcel Energy Center right back to Minneapolis."

On the other hand, four other conventions have been booked since the RNC, according to officials. And another suggested there was no pricetag on the value of Chris Matthews proclaiming Rice Park, "the most beautiful spot in the world." A few days later, Matthews lost his gig at MSNBC for other reasons.

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The governor's bad week

Posted at 8:11 AM on September 7, 2008 by Bob Collins (0 Comments)
Filed under: The political conventions

This is what it comes down to for Gov. Tim Pawlenty, eh? He went from a near shoe-in for a spot on a presidential ticket to doing interviews with a sock puppet.

(h/t: MnSpeak)

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Embedded reporters at RNC

Posted at 5:01 PM on September 5, 2008 by Bob Collins (24 Comments)
Filed under: Media, The political conventions

protest_thrs_getty.jpg

I learned today -- perhaps the same way you did -- that MPR had an embedded reporter within the police ranks during the last part of the Republican National Convention: I read it on Tim Nelson's RNC convention blog. He described Thursday's confrontations:

I was variously ordered to get down and to leave immediately. I was inadvertently struck by pepper spray and by "stinger balls" from an explosive thrown at my feet. But per our agreement, I was never forced to leave the scene.

I don't know the exact count of journalists detained. I heard numbers last night as high as 18. I did see some people with credentials issued by the Republican National Convention among the handcuffed detainees. But I also saw people with handmade "media" insignia and several students claiming to be with a college paper in Iowa.

Tim was riding along Thursday with one of the mobile police units. He was one of 8 reporters in the Twin Cities media to be so accomodated at times during the week. He could share the information he acquired after the convention ended. (Update, Sat. 9:23 a.m.: The Star Tribune's perspective was printed this morning)

For the record, his deal was unknown to all but a very few news officials in his company.But now that he has written about the arrangement, it's fair game.

These sorts of agreements pose difficult questions for news organizations. We invite you to discuss it in the comments section below in the interest of being transparent about them:

  • Should journalists "embed" (or even "ride along" ) with anybody? Clearly we've seen it most recently in the Iraq War. Access was granted to journalists to get the military's side of the story, and to get a good look at things. By virtue of the position they took up during the RNC protests (almost by default) journalists essentially embedded with the protesters. So what's wrong with taking up a position on the other side of the police lines?

  • What's the payoff? Can you use what you learn in a timely manner, preferably while it's still news? Part of the arrangement allowed Nelson -- as gifted a reporter as I've ever had the pleasure of being associated with -- to watch the events on Thursday night with enhanced odds of escaping the fate that other journalists -- mainstream local journalists, even -- suffered. But a credentialed journalist -- not the kind with Kinko-manufactured press badges -- should be able to observe police actions without needing to cut quid pro quo arrangements.

  • If a news organization makes a deal with law enforcement for special treatment and an agreement to stay silent on certain issues for an agreed-upon period of time, does the news organization have a responsibility to tell the audience that the report being delivered is part of an agreement with the officials he/she is covering not to be chased from the scene in exchange for.... something?

    It's unclear why credentialed journalists were swept up on Thursday night. Police Chief John Harrington said it was difficult to tell the "real" journalists from the phony ones. But from the advantage of his position, Nelson wrote, he could see some of the journalists being picked up had RNC credentials. The police didn't have to figure out who was who: the Secret Service had already done that when it did a background check on everyone who applied for those credentials.

    On the air with MPR's Cathy Wurzer on Friday morning, Nelson clearly had some after-the-fact insight into how everything went down on the cops' side, but we made a mistake, perhaps, in not disclosing the arrangement that allowed him to acquire it. Asked about the arrests of local journalists, he said that police had clearly ordered people to move.

    On his blog, he answered the question of why some people were arrested and some weren't in a slightly different way:

    Because last week, the St. Paul police offered the media -- or at least those who showed up to a meeting at the Western District police offices -- the opportunity to accompany the officers among St. Paul's "mobile field force" teams.

    St. Paul Police Chief John Harrington told MPR News today that all local news organizations were offered the embedded positions, but the protections that Nelson suggests it afforded, did not extend to all journalists -- real journalists -- at Thursday's night's events. Listen

    "News organizations took volunteers, and I guess not everybody wanted to do that. We just offered the chance to be embedded over the four days, and we had 8 slots to offer people, and all slots were filled. We made that an open opportunity," he said. Some local news organizations declined the offer. Why?

    Late on Friday, MPR News Director Bill Wareham further clarified the arrangement between Nelson and the St. Paul police:


    He signed a liability waiver.

    He agreed that if he went on a ride-along for a day, he wouldn't publish/broadcast anything about it until the end of the convention.

    In his words, "The agreement was that they would let me do my job if I let them do theirs and didn't disclose their methods before the end of the convention. I was not in the area when the order to disperse was given, and never there without a police escort." Also, "The sergeant told me that the safest place was behind their line and that if I got in front of them I would not be allowed to cross back into their lines. 'You're on your own out there,' I believe she said to me."

    Because of the post-convention embargo, we decided that if we took advantage of the ride-along opportunity, it wouldn't be until Thursday so the information wouldn't be stale. We did take advantage of the opportunity Thursday, but all of his protest coverage earlier in the week had no arrangement with the cops attached

    Meanwhile, Amnesty International joined in the chorus of criticism against police force this week:

    The organization's concerns arise from media reports, video and photographic images which appear to show police officers deploying unnecessary and disproportionate use of non-lethal weapons on non-violent protesters marching through the streets or congregating outside the arena where the Convention was being held.

    Police are reported to have fired rubber bullets and used batons, pepper spray, tear gas canisters and concussion grenades on peaceful demonstrators and journalists. Amnesty International has also received unconfirmed reports that some of those arrested during the demonstrations may have been ill-treated while held at Ramsey county jail.

    The human rights organization is calling for an investigation. On MPR's Midmorning today, Mayor Chris Coleman said there would be "a review" of the police performance, but when pressed on how he felt about it, Coleman said "I feel great."

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    Live-blogging Midmorning: Mayor Chris Coleman

    Posted at 9:19 AM on September 5, 2008 by Bob Collins (15 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    Mayor Chris Coleman is on Midmorning. Here are the salient points.

    9:20 a.m. The city of St. Paul has been put on a map it has never been on before. Cites a cop in St. Louis who said "he can't wait to bring his family here."

    9:21 a.m. Caller who says he was swept up yesterday even though he wasn't a protester. "These guys trained for a year and had all these toys and they were itching to use them."

    "Fully comfortable with the methods used?" Kerri asks. Yes/No question not answered with a yes/no. Coleman recounts information the cops had about the protesters. "I want people to understand, this was not just a couple of people who were mouthing off. It was one of the most coordinated efforts in the history of the country to shut down political dialog."

    Kerri asks her question again. No yes/no answer yet. The mayor says the protesters violated the 5 p.m. limit of the protest. Says cops didn't just shut it down, for four hours the police "very patiently waited for this thing to move."

    Kerri presses on the caller's contention that he was heading for his car when he had a gun pointed in his face. Coleman says "it's hard for the police department to tell who is who?"

    "Are you entirely comfortable with all of the methods?" Kerri asks. "We'll do a review," Coleman said.

    "This morning, how do you feel?" she persists.

    "This morning I feel great," the mayor said.

    Is that a 'yes"?

    9:27 a.m. Caller says she's proud of St. Paul. "Last night I was terribly sad and heartsick. It was a peaceful protest. The intimidation use was frustrating. How do you plan to pay for lawsuits."

    Coleman says officers acted within their lawful authority. Coleman says the city isn't liable because the Host Committee purchased a lawsuit to cover liability. (Some people say that gave the police license to be tougher than they had to be.)

    "People need to understand; this was not a soft threat. They were going to throw everything they had at us. That's the duty of public safety."

    9:31 a.m. Business owner on Grand says not a single delegate came in. Charter buses between the X and Grand were empty.

    "You have to focus in on the four days of the convention. Some businesses did not have benefit but many did. Says Meritage, Heime's and Keys had best week's (most of the articles I've seen about Meritage were so-so. What's the story here? In the last half hour of the show, Kerri is looking for businesses to call in.)

    Coleman says construction crews, Host Committee were here for months ahead of time, shopping, eating and having drinks. It's a slow week for retail anyway. He repeats the story of the police officer who can't wait to come back. Coleman's message appears to be that whatever businesses didn't get this week, they got in the weeks leading up to the convention.

    Laura Yuen and Brandt Williams assess this.

    9:35 a.m. - Coleman on Coleman. Kerri plays Norm Coleman's remarks to the convention which seemed to suggest St. Paul was Flint, Michigan before Norm. Coleman took office.
    Chris Coleman says he disagrees that "he was the engine. A lot of people had been toiling for years." Says NC was able to rely on a steady increase in state aid, and Clinton Cop money. "He made the city increasingly reliant on other sources of revenue that, in the end, dried up and went away; it became much more of a challenge," the mayor said.

    "It's a consistent challenge to the Republican message that you can get something for nothing."

    9:38 a.m. Coleman departs.

    9:44 a.m. - Bruce Nestor of the National Lawyers Guild says the militarized presence of the city "was all out of proportion." Kerri asks if some responsibility for that falls with the people who were bent on destruction? "Whatever change in tactics was carried out regardless of what was occurring in the crowd," he said. He says they "chose to grab an independent journalist prepared to do an interview with somebody" at the Mears Park protest.

    9:46 a.m. - Caller asks about "journalists" who were detained without having done anything. Specifically asks about Iglehart raid. Nestor says targeting journalists started in Minneapolis last week when the Glass Bead Collective journalists were grabbed when they got off a bus. "Iit raises serious questions about what type of intelligence was used to carry out the raids.

    Kerri asks about Coleman's assistance that there were lots of announcements to disperse. "Journalists also want to be present to cover arrests and see how police behave," Nestor said. "Even if they heard a dispersal order, there was no opportunity to disperse."

    9:50 a.m. Caller says people didn't respect other businesses. "There was no capability to shut down the RNC," Nestor said. "Even if it could happen, does that requiring militarizing the entire city?" He says last night was a "forceful way to suppress dissent.

    9:53 a.m. "How dloes it reflect on the city of St. Paul when you're walking down the street with kids and there are officers on top of cars with guns?" a caller asks.

    "In fairness to the St. Paul Police, I think a lot of this was driven by ... federal agencies, Secret Service. On a national security event like this, there's a model that's been used locally -- Seattle, Miami -- which relies on the militarized approach and the use of force. The tone was set on Friday night with the raid on the Convergence Center," Nestor said.

    9:56 a.m. Asked about police infiltrators of these groups who heard plans, "They had paid confidential informants who are paid on the value of the information. The more scary, the more valuable," he said.

    == End ==

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    A week in St. Paul

    Posted at 12:05 PM on September 5, 2008 by Bob Collins (1 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    MPR's Sasha Aslanian and Jeff Harkness have put together a nifty multimedia presentation looking back at this week's activities.


    You can find a larger version here.

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    The party's over

    Posted at 5:26 AM on September 5, 2008 by Bob Collins (23 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    So that's it, then. Like a long-planned wedding, the Republican National Convention has come and gone and here we sit waiting for the photographs, wondering if we did the right thing.

    How was it for you?

    Share your stories of experiencing the convention -- or not -- in the comments section.

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    How did authorities monitor library computer use by suspected bomb maker?

    Posted at 4:45 PM on September 4, 2008 by Bob Collins (12 Comments)
    Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

    Wednesday's news release from the U.S. Department of Justice, detailing a criminal complaint against a Michigan man accused of planning to make Molotov cocktails and bomb the Xcel Center, carried this paragraph:

    The affidavit states that DePalma went to the Hennepin County Library on August 18 and spent 90 minutes researching recipes for explosive devices. DePalma produced a handwritten list of items he would need to construct "special" Molotov cocktails that would stick to people and other targets.

    How did authorities get the information about Matthew DePalma's activity while online using a Hennepin County Library computer?

    "All I can tell you is what's in the affadavit," said David Anderson, a public affairs specialist for the Department of Justice. The affadavit didn't say.

    Did the library monitor, and then turn over, records of the computer's use to authorities?" The Hennepin County Library and its employees had nothing to do with it," said Stacy A. Opitz, a spokeswoman for the library.

    That could mean it was something as simple as someone watching what DePalma was doing.

    Under the Minnesota Data Practices Act, libraries can only turn over information about patrons with a court order. The Patriot Act allows monitoring of electronic (or other) activities of patrons in libraries,something to which the American Library Association has objected. Some libraries, according to the ALA, are destroying computer access records on a regular basis to avoid complying.

    But in this case, there's no clear indication how authorities monitored the library's computer.

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    Live-blogging: The last protest

    Posted at 7:41 PM on September 4, 2008 by Bob Collins (37 Comments)
    Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

    day4poster.jpgIt's going to be an interesting evening. The last protest of the RNC is starting at 4. You may recall -- if you're a regular News Cut reader -- this is the one that organizers said would be the "more militant" protest, as opposed to the family-friendly one on Monday. "If people are wondering about Day 4, is it going to be safe, is it going to be OK to bring their families, we would say 'yes.' I think the more the better," the organizers said five or six weeks ago. We'll just see.

    3:11 p.m. - The situation is, basically, shutting downtown St. Paul businesses. Caribou Coffee in Town Square brings us a pot of coffee because "it's going to be a long night." Besides, they don't need it; they say they've been told to close down. MPR sends non-newsroom people home.

    3:17 p.m. - The people who are in line for the Daily Show have disappeared.

    daily_show_gone.jpg

    In the last two days, the people aren't let in until 5:30. Either the Daily Show is recording tonight's show early, or they want people off the street. The answer to that -- as with everything about The Daily Show -- is a matter of national security.

    3:44 p.m. A "Kinko's journalist" (Has laminated credentials that aren't real press credentials) arrives, and appears to have broken every rule in the book about covering protests/riots.

    kinko_journalist.jpg

    3:46 p.m. Ramsey County announces it's closed the Juvenile Justice Center on West Seventh Street and the Public Health Clinic on Cedar in St. Paul because of the pending protest march.

    4:26 p.m. - The left-hand-right-hand department -- Says the Joint Information Center:

    Law enforcement officials in charge of security and public safety operations associated with the Republican National Convention in Saint Paul are dismissing as untrue reports that they requested offices in downtown Saint Paul to close early.

    4:54 p.m. Who keeps all those police bicycles in shape and what's it like to be a bike cop? MPR's Michael Wells has the answer:

    4:58 p.m. Police have told organizers they have to be finished by 5 p.m. (MPR)

    5:04 p.m. Most marchers are heading toward John Ireland Blvd., on Rice. A separate group is attempting to go down Cedar Ave. Some arrests are being made. (KARE 11).

    5:05 p.m. St. Paul officers on horseback are blocking John Ireland Blvd. (WCCO)

    5:11 p.m. Via Twitter @TheInDecider (Daily Show - Michael Kraskin and Dennis DiClaudio) reports march is now a sit-in.

    5:21 p.m. - Live video (via cellcam) of the situation.

    5:26 p.m. - MPR's Sea Stachura has sent this image of the standoff:

    standoff_thurs.jpg

    MPR's Steve Mullis says, "Cops on Capitol side of John Ireland Blvd., protesters on the Cathedral side. Chanting loudly. Police are not amused."

    5:28 p.m. - MPR's Tom Crann is interviewing the owner of Mickey's Diner. Flashback to Monday night:

    mickeys_diner.jpg

    "It didn't affect us at all," Melissa Matson said. "There were customers who came in right before and we didn't realize they hadn't been served so we were very apologetic." She says regulars are starting to show up again.

    5:32 p.m. Steve Mullis' has sent this image:

    a8ib-9e69ad34a984c594a6aa1341f8813094.48c06098.jpg

    5:39 p.m. - Nobody's making a move.

    6:01 p.m. - Joint Press Information Center just issued this release:

    Law enforcement officials in charge of security and public safety operations associated with the Republican National Convention in Saint Paul are asking for the public's assistance in identifying an apparent assault victim and suspected rioters.

    Officials would like to speak with the apparent victim of an assault that occurred on Monday in Saint Paul. Law enforcement officials are also interested in speaking with individuals seen attacking the victim.

    Law enforcement is also asking for the public's assistance in a separate case (see attached bulletin). Officials believe this individual is responsible for breaking windows at the 1st National Bank building on Monday, September 1 in Saint Paul. Anyone who can identify him is asked to contact police.

    People with information about any of the individuals in the photos are asked to call the Saint Paul Police Department at 651-291-1111

    joint_press_photo.jpg

    6:09 p.m. - via Twitter @TheIndecider says people are leaving. Would they give up that easy. Looks to me like the police have fortified Cedar at I-94 bridge. The strategy seems clear: Keep 'em on the other side of I-94. So far it's working, easily. The police only need to guard two bridges rather than try to corral protesters throughout an entire downtown as they had to do on Monday.

    6:14 p.m. - Police have "retaken" the John Ireland bridge. A small handful of protesters have linked arms.

    6:18 p.m. - A line of blue is up around the front of the Capitol. Both main bridges to downtown are clogged with police. The only way this thing gets seriously out of hand is if the few people on the south side of I-94 (who are watching) turn out to be the "anarchists." That doesn't seem likely.

    6:23 p.m. - More police have been added to the Cedar St. bridge. Dumptrucks have been moved across the road on the south side of the bridge.

    6:37 p.m. - Here's the picture I shot a few minutes ago. Police have reinforced the bridge.

    cedar_12.jpg

    As I shot this, an officer said, "Sir, you have to move back across the street." Yes, I had my press credentials and , no, I hadn't crossed the police line. But -- and this is the first chance I've had to use this as a verb -- I decided not to "Amy Goodman" the situation.

    Why don't the protesters move to the next bridge at Minnesota?

    Because these people are waiting...

    12_minnesota.jpg

    And, besides, there's no way for the protesters to get there. 12th Street is blocked and the parking garage and armory provide a barricade.

    Snowplows have been mounted on city trucks and filled with sand. They're being moved in to reinforce things on Cedar:

    plows.jpg

    As more police move up from downtown...

    police_reinforce.jpg

    How long can this last? The police didn't take the bait, didn't move in on the protesters, and clearly are trying to avoid a confrontation. John McCain speaks in an hour or so, then leaves, and when everyone is gone, and the 10 p.m. news is over, the police can squeeze whatever protesters are left.

    6:52 p.m. - Here's a map of how police succeeded in isolating the protesters from downtown, and the Excel Center.

    map_thurs.jpg

    For those following who are not in St. Paul, the yellow interstate is about 30 feet down from the surface streets where everyone is positioned.

    7:20 p.m. Via David Brauer (via Twitter) - City Pages reporter among those pepper sprayed. Their report says they had both followed orders to lie on the ground. Then they were maced.

    7:28 p.m. - A woman was just maced and taken away. MPR's Steve Mullis says police are making small advances to get people to scatter and thin out the crowd, and then surrounding those who stay behind, and arresting them.

    7:43 p.m. - Part 2 of the bike cops video. Kudos to Michael Wells, Bo Hakala and Anna Weggle

    7:51 p.m. - Flickr photostream of this afternoon/evening's events.

    7:54 p.m. Via Twitter, The InDecider says a police car window was smashed.

    7:58 p.m. - 12 arrests, according to the Pioneer Press. Additional images. Here.

    8:02 p.m. MPR's Steve Mullis (via Twitter), "Cops respected press credentials and let us break the line" to return to the downtown section of the city.

    8:18 p.m. - Protesters are pretty much broken up. Some tried to get over the bridge at Marion but failed. Police shot flashbangs. Protesters are in small groups and are unlikely to reform -- or be allowed to reform. My son -- who works here -- has just returned and says all of the people he saw get pepper-sprayed by police had just failed to obey an order.

    8:29 p.m. - Total arrests will be over 100. We may yet hit the 800 prediction from Sheriff Bob Fletcher.

    This thing is over.

    Submitted photo:

    From Jessica Vogt : "Anti-war protest. Police stop protesters at the John Ireland Blvd. bridge. The crowd gathers."

    contributed_photo.jpg

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    Fail!

    Posted at 1:54 PM on September 4, 2008 by Bob Collins (7 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    The verdict is in from one St. Paul shopowner on the alleged economic benefit of the Republican National Convention: Fail!

    Theoretically, Bonnie Andert's Blink Bonnie Subs should be doing a booming business; it's located right next to the Xcel Energy Center, where the convention is being held. Nobody can see her business because of the big CNN bus parked in the way...

    cnn_bus.jpg

    And even if you knew it was there, the security barriers require a person to walk one block west...

    one_block_west.jpg

    ... cross the street, and then one block east.

    one_block_east.jpg

    Few are bothering to do it this week. Andert had hoped the week would help her business get out of debt, but it's only getting worse.

    Few customers are even walking half a block.Today at noon, Cosetta's -- one of the most popular lunch-time spots in the city -- sent people to the street trying to lure over-tanned CNN celebs (and anyone else with cash) to come in.

    cosetta.jpg

    Other than the Eagle St. Grille, which cashed in with the CNN location, at least one business has benefited. A medical supply business on the block rented its space out for the week. The combination oil painting - caramel corn - goofy Republican hat shop that went for the deal does not appear to be doing well.

    The convention was sold to St. Paulites as a once-in-a-lifetime thing. Some businesses are hoping that's true.

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    How they see us

    Posted at 10:03 AM on September 4, 2008 by Bob Collins (1 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    For the most part, delegates haven't gotten to see much of St. Paul or meet many people from the Twin Cities. They're taking buses into and out of the city, and directly to whatever private event they've got scheduled.

    All they know, is what they see out of the bus window, as this image taken by a member of the Ohio delegation attests:

    welcome_to_st_paul.jpg


    "Monday night the delegation attended a reception honoring Auditor of State Mary Taylor. It was in the beautiful Landmark Center in St. Paul. The building was perfect but the location turned out to be a little rough. It was so close to the Xcel Center (where the Convention is) that we were blocked and harassed by protestors any time we stepped outside."

    Meanwhile, bloggers for the Rocky Mountain News in Denver have assessed that St. Paul is the new Chicago:

    Claim: Denver worried about being compared to the 1968 convention, but it was the 2008 Republican National Convention in St. Paul that earned the distinction - on its first day.
    Rocky Truth Patrol says: Rock Solid

    Some 150 National Guard troops were called in Monday to help maintain order in some parts of St. Paul after self-described anarchists smashed windows, slashed tires and even attacked delegates.

    The comparison came from Fred Biebel, an 83-year-old delegate from Connecticut, in an interview with the Hartford Currant. Biebel has attended every GOP convention since 1956. He made the comparison to the Republican convention of 1968, which was less violent than the Democrat's convention that year in Chicago, but still featured protesters throwing rocks at the windows of the delegates' bus.

    "It compared a little bit, not as bad, to 1968," Biebel told the Hartford Currant. "That was scary."

    Meanwhile, officials in Denver were still counting their blessings for a relatively smooth DNC last week. Managers of downtown skyscrapers even had glass company trucks on standby in their buildings' garages, ready to fix any broken windows. None were needed.

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    Where comedy, politics, and education meet

    Posted at 9:31 AM on September 4, 2008 by Bob Collins
    Filed under: The political conventions

    interns.jpg

    "I'm really sorry I'm late," Jeremy Nordeen, a Bismarck, North Dakota native, said this morning as he showed up for our interview, originally scheduled for 7 a.m., "I was out with Rob Riggle and the guys shooting some pieces."

    Oh, right, the old "I-was-out-with-Rob-Riggle-and-the-guys" excuse. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that.

    If Nordeen's and fellow Brown College student Ann Avoles' dream of working in film or television doesn't pan out, there's always comedy. Both have a sharp flair for timing - comedic and otherwise.

    They parlayed that into a two-week gig during the Republican National Convention as production assistants with The Daily Show, which is broadcasting this week from the History Theater at McNally Smith College of Music.

    "The one question that I was asked (in the job interview), 'If you were able to meet any famous person -- dead or alive -- who would it be? And I said 'Tom Selleck,'" Ann said. Score one gig with the Daily Show.

    "If I'd been asked that question, I would have said 'Teddy Roosevelt' because I'm a much more staunch, political person," Jeremy deadpanned. The question posed to him was little less philosophical. "They asked me if I could drive a 15-person van."

    Both are reluctant to disclose what they're doing at The Daily Show this week; they've signed confidentiality agreements. But Avoles says one of her jobs has been rescuing staff members from protests. "It got to the point where even the Minneapolis police knew me by my first name," she says. The show was locked down Monday night as protests swirled outside the downtown theater.

    Norden says the production assistants have worked hard to play it cool around the show's stars. "You have to be professional when you're in there and recognize these people have a job to do... All the interns talk to each other and say, 'don't be that guy.'"

    "This is just great! Some of our classmates are working down at FoxNews. That's a little too serious for me," Avoles said, who wants to meld what she's learned in television production with a degree she's already earned in applied technology and graphic design. "I want to do commercials."

    "I hopefully stay in the business the rest of my life; I hope I never become disinterested. I've found my calling," Jeremy says.

    No joke.


    Where are the protesters from?

    Posted at 4:27 PM on September 3, 2008 by Bob Collins (1 Comments)
    Filed under: Crime and Justice, The political conventions

    google_map.jpg

    MPR's Steve Mullis has pulled together a Google map (don't click the map above,it's just an image, instead go here.) showing the listed hometowns of people who were arrested in St. Paul on Monday and Tuesday.

    It's not a scientific presentation. Many of those arrested are giving phony names and addresses.

    We've taken their names off.

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    Is this mic on?

    Posted at 3:15 PM on September 3, 2008 by Bob Collins (2 Comments)
    Filed under: Politics, The political conventions

    The political analysts on the cable networks are a lot more honest when they're off the air. A couple of Republican commentators -- Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy -- went off script when talking about the Palin pick, after concluding an appearance on MSNBC.

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    Pick the journalist

    Posted at 2:33 PM on September 3, 2008 by Bob Collins (16 Comments)
    Filed under: Media, The political conventions

    who_is_the_journalist.jpg

    In the picture, pick out the journalists. You can click on the image to make it larger.

    Even in the relative calm when this picture was shot, it's difficult to determine who is a journalist, who is a protester with a camera and who is actually a protester but is saying he/she is a journalist.

    Add a little action into the mix, and smaller credentials aren't much help.

    A news release from the people in charge of the police today appears to suggest that the police aren't going to waste much time this week trying to determine who's a real journalist, and who are the posers.

    Law enforcement responsible for security and public safety in the Twin Cities area would like to remind members of the media of the proper procedures for staying safe during unlawful assemblies. When police officials request the breakup of an unlawful assembly by announcement to the gathered crowd, that order applies to all individuals, including the media. A quick and orderly dispersal is more likely to help people, including media personnel, stay safe and avoid arrest.

    Because still cameras, video cameras and other recording equipment are commonplace at large events or gatherings, it can be difficult for law enforcement and others to differentiate between credentialed media, un-credentialed media or others who may carry similar equipment. While law enforcement in no way wishes to restrict First Amendment rights, members of the press must also follow police orders to protect their safety, the safety of police and others.


    (Photo via Getty)

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    Candidates' kids in photo ops

    Posted at 12:44 PM on September 3, 2008 by Bob Collins (19 Comments)
    Filed under: The political conventions

    palin_mccain.jpg

    The McCain campaign -- and most everyone else -- has warned reporters not to focus on the pregnancy of the daughter of vice presidential running mate Sarah Palin. A candidate's children are "off limits," the candidates themselves usually say. It's not an unreasonable point.

    So why would you make the young Palin, and her soon-to-be-husband, part of the photo op with the arriving Republican presidential-nominee-to-be at the Minneapolis St. Paul Airport today?

    It's not just Republicans, of course. Candidates have regularly used their kids to portray an image.

    candidate_kids.jpg

    When are the children of candidates "off limits"?

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