Teacher's anti-student rant becomes a cause
Posted at 10:13 AM on February 16, 2011
by Bob Collins
(21 Comments)
Filed under: Schools
Should a high school English teacher have called her students out for being lazy and whiny?
The question is playing out in Pennsylvania, the Associated Press reports, because teacher Natalie Munroe wrote a post on her blog about the kids she has to teach.
"My students are out of control," Munroe, who has taught 10th, 11th and 12th grades, wrote in one post. "They are rude, disengaged, lazy whiners. They curse, discuss drugs, talk back, argue for grades, complain about everything, fancy themselves entitled to whatever they desire, and are just generally annoying."
And in another post, Munroe -- who is more than eight months pregnant -- writes: "Kids! They are disobedient, disrespectful oafs. Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy LOAFERS." She also comes up with a colorful list of comments that she felt should be available on student report cards.
Apparently she wrote the blog anonymously, and didn't mention the school at which she teaches.
But now that she's been outed by some kids, she's been suspended and she's talking and blogging out loud. "Parents are more trying to be their kids' friends and less trying to be their parent," Munroe told the AP. "They (kids) want everything right now. They want it yesterday."
Schools are in uncharted territory when it comes to disciplining teachers for their online behavior. But increasingly, schools -- as in Minnesota -- are under pressure to police the online behavior of kids.
Not surprisingly, Munroe has become a cause for generalizations. It's true, her students might be lazy jerks. But does that mean all students are? I'd like to hear from teachers on this.
Comments (21)
I'm not, but my wife is a teacher and from the stories I hear this teacher is spot on.
Though it doesn't seem to be the case with all students. My wife's best students have been ESL, the parents are engaged and demand the students pay attention in class.
I'd note that some of this teacher's criticisms are not new. I remember teachers saying kids are " Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy" and "They (kids) want everything right now. They want it yesterday." about a million years ago when I was in school. Not about me of course, I was an angel.
Heh.
I'm a grad student and part of my duty is to do a TA. This semester I have to do a science lab where 90% of the kids are non-science majors. All they care about is a grade. It's frustrating trying to give them the clues to get an answer when all they want is the shortcut. They dont want to learn, they want a grade.
I just had an argument yesterday with a student over an assignment to turn in a couple study questions with answers in the form of multiple choice. They turned in short answer questions and thus when they did not get points they proceeded to argue and argue over the interpretation of "multiple choice." I can't believe some of them even made it to college... basic knowledge they should have had previous teachers teach them is nonexistent- such as which ocean is the Pacific on a map, the climate you would expect in Siberia (northern Russia), and the correct spelling and grammar (rarely seen the correct spelling of "a lot").
@ Ben-
If I were you maybe I would ask myself this question. "When I was a student with a full load of classes, and given the intensity of the workload for each class, did I focus on my Major subjects that had ALOT to do with my career plans?"
I would think that if a student has limited time to study due to working a paying job and going to school, they might use their noggin to find the best way to get the most out of their education, by focusing on the classes that will be a part of their future plans.
In your case 'when the student is ready the teacher appears
I really think that the state should be concerned with licensed and qualified teachers that are on the pay roll funded by the state
Students throughout middle school and high school are suppose to pass tests that show that they in fact know basic knowledge from areas such as physical science, biology, history, social studies, writing/English, etc. These are Freshmen and Sophomores in COLLEGE who are suppose to know these things, but clearly don't.
There are too many cracks and holes in this system that allow students to get grades and not an education... and it's rubbing off into their social lives and how they interact with others (especially teachers).
And if students really want to concentrate on their major they can go to a specialty college or take out a loan to pay for college instead of getting a job. I worked half to full time while in my undergrad and was a double major who graduated in four years with TWO BS degrees. It is very possible to work, do ALL your classes (liberal arts schools have this importance of getting a well-rounded education), and still maintain good grades in all your classes.
Bottom line is students are lazy and are constantly looking for the easiest way to get it done and over.
Ill-advised, perhaps. Obviously it wasn't anonynmous ENOUGH if she got caught. But she should certainly be allowed an outlet if not identified and not identifying her students.
Bonus points to her for the Bye Bye Birdie reference.
I'm pretty sure that "multiple choice" only has one meaning in an academic setting, and I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't require too much attention to follow directions. If you don't do the assignment, you don't get the points. That's how school works.
I used to teach high school English. Private school. Almost all of my students were delightful. At the same time, they were looking for shortcuts, arguing about grades, being noisy, and complaining. You know, being kids. They could be really annoying, sure, but when the balance tipped to intolerable, it was when a parent would support the behavior -- especially grade grubbing! AGH!
Teachers should be allowed to vent. Blogging may not be the smartest way to do it, but would they fire her for griping at a happy hour and being overheard by a student? ("HEY! What is that kid doing at happy hour!?!?!?). That said, pregnant ladies should avoid getting all judgy about other parents; that's just asking for it.
Cen Bhorn, it's "a lot". Ben Chorn, here's a treat for you re: "alot":
http://preview.tinyurl.com/y42zurt
While I've never been a teacher (other than teaching rock climbing which doesn't count for this really) I have been a student for most of my life. While I didn't really see the problems the teacher talked about during high school now that I've been in college I know exactly what this teacher is talking about. Most students have a sense of entitlement that they should get an A no matter what.
I think most of this stems from the reason why kids are in school now. If you ask most kids at college why they are there it's so that they will be able to get a good job and make more money than anyone else. The students are paying a large sum of money for a degree, not to learn things. There are kids there that just want to learn (me being one of them) but they are few and far between. Like Ben was saying above when students are put into a required class that they don't care about they just want to get it over with. It's not because they are lazy, in fact I know some very industrious people who see it as easier to argue for an A instead of actually doing the work for the same grade.
I've also seen this sense of entitlement in people just graduating from college with their bachelor's and complaining about how they can't get a job now. It's as though they believe that by paying for a degree it entitles them to a amazing (high paying) job right away.
My in-laws have both been bi-lingual teachers for over 20 years in a low-income area in the suburbs of Chicago. Thankfully they are both retiring after this school year, as the quality (I use this term loosely) of their students has steadily declined over the years.
There used to be a few bad eggs in each class, and then it was about a 50/50 split for a time, now there are only a few good ones. Few actually care to learn anything at all, but the bad ones unfortunately take all of the attention away with their antics. One of their favorite activities is to steal the potted plants my mother-in-law decorates her room with, take them into the hallway, and smash them on the ground.
Literally nothing reaches them, no matter how many detentions, referrals or suspensions they get. Lazy, self-involved, narcissistic, among other choice words only begin to describe their students. They're horrible and it's really sad and discouraging. I wish I could admit to embellishing, but sadly I am not.
I agree with most of the comments being written. As a professor of art in higher ed, I encounter the entitlement, the laziness, the whining and grade grubbing some students perceive as ways of getting ahead. But most troubling is the lack of creativity, motivation and good old fashioned "out of the box" thinking that seems to take a backseat to getting good grades. (And in art, grades are not what matters, its the portfolio). Most students, it seems, are afraid to fail. They are afraid to take the risks that will inevitably cause them to succeed. I'm sure there are plenty of places to assert blame for these inadequacies.
When I was in my freshman year of college I remember being told by the dean of students at a college commencement that they could bring the expertise, but students had to bring the motivation. They couldn't provide this key to learning, we had to find it within ourselves. I've held this true ever since. Obviously, certain teachers were more skilled at pushing and pulling that motivation than others. But if you lacked the will to try, to take risks, to fail, to try again, than you lacked the motivation to succeed.
It's a pretty generic message, but in all the cheese, I have found it fairly true.
If the teacher feels that way about kids, for one she shouldn't be teaching at all or she should teach at a private school where the kids are brought up in a different environment, two she shouldn't be having her own kid. I feel sorry for her kid when they grow up because, their mom will be overly strict, and critical. Which causes depression, low self-esteem.
Sincerely 14 year old
I think she is right on., but my concern is that
the parents are more responsible for the
students attitude. The fruit doesn't fall far
from the tree. (I am not a teacher, but have been and continue to be a volunteer tutor at
both private and public schools). There are
many students who want to do their best, but
there are also many who have no desire to
learn and spend quite a bit of time being
disruptive. As to jellytime's comment, I believe
there is a difference between being overly
strict and critical and providing support and
encouragement for their child to do well in
school. It goes back to my initial point, the
parents are responsible for their childrens
attitude toward school.
Hey raygor-
What's a raygor? 'Too' funny.
I too have volunteered at schools teaching art and it can be exhausting but I think that is the job even with well behaved children.
I think PB might be noticing the effects that grade focused parents have on their children -his friends. He knows that it is not the letter grade that counts but whether the student understands whats going on.
No chest pounding speeches, no vomiting guru who knows everything,
-he came out gave his comment straight up.
pretty brave if you ask me.
I think he has a point which is if she is so disgusted with the atmosphere than maybe she should try another position
and for the love of pete quit whining.
As a middle school teacher, I don't know if students have gotten lazier, but principals certainly have. To avoid confrontations with parents, more and more they change grades over teachers' objections, avoid giving consequences for misbehavior, and force their staff to dumb down courses by cutting student work and rigor of content. And if these choices lower student achievement, only the teacher gets the blame.
There is no such thing as failure, only feedback.
Everything is an learning opportunity to find out what works and what doesn't work. It is important to separate behavior from identity.
People already have all the resources they need.
We learn how to access these resources at appropriate times and places.
Every behavior is useful in some context.
///"Parents are more trying to be their kids' friends and less trying to be their parent," Munroe told the AP. "They (kids) want everything right now. They want it yesterday."
well yahhhh.
They're teenagers!
I would like to know if she is implying that parents are not supposed to be friends to their children. I liken child/parent friendship to being a parent who is approachable with feelings, ideas,
fears, mistakes...the whole teenage experience. Just becasue a parent is open to discussion on all subjects does not mean that they are necessarily complying with wishes of the teen all the time but it allows the teen to debate and see where some choices may not be the best.
I think DNA has a good point about behavior and identifying why instead of labeling.
/"Just because a parent is open to discussion on all subjects does not mean that they are necessarily complying with wishes of the teen all the time but it allows the teen to debate and see where some choices may not be the best."/
This is precisely the problem with how children behave in school! Each child believes that they need debate decisions made by the teacher. Imagine having 30+ students who constantly want to debate each decision that a teacher makes. It is fine if a parent wants this type of relationship at home, but a classroom cannot function this way! I am a teacher and many days feel exhausted by all the little centers-of-the-universe who collide in my classroom.
//This is precisely the problem with how children behave in school! Each child believes that they need debate decisions made by the teacher. Imagine having 30+ students who constantly want to debate each decision that a teacher makes. It is fine if a parent wants this type of relationship at home, but a classroom cannot function this way! I am a teacher and many days feel exhausted by all the little centers-of-the-universe who collide in my classroom.
So you are saying that they should sit still be quiet and believe every word that comes out of your mouth without question?
That doesn't seem like a healthy environment to me. There must be a way to get balance in your classroom so that the students can engage in the lesson.
These are the new kids and they are going to change our planet. And this time its gonna be for the better.
//This is precisely the problem with how children behave in school! Each child believes that they need debate decisions made by the teacher. Imagine having 30+ students who constantly want to debate each decision that a teacher makes. It is fine if a parent wants this type of relationship at home, but a classroom cannot function this way! I am a teacher and many days feel exhausted by all the little centers-of-the-universe who collide in my classroom.
So you are saying that they should sit still be quiet and believe every word that comes out of your mouth without question?
That doesn't seem like a healthy environment to me. There must be a way to get balance in your classroom so that the students can engage in the lesson.
These are the new kids and they are going to change our planet. And this time its gonna be for the better.
@ c
You are taking what I said completely out of context. I am constantly dialoguing with students and getting feedback and allowing students to approach understanding in their own ways. However, not EVERYTHING should be up for debate. It seems there is a hostility towards teachers and reading your post makes it clear that it starts at home.
Also, there are times when a student does need to sit down and be quiet. It may not be when they want it, but for the good of the whole it needs to happen.
I hope that you are right about kids changing the world for the better, but before that can happen they need to learn about community and that everything is not about them all the time.
//@ c
You are taking what I said completely out of context. I am constantly dialoguing with students and getting feedback and allowing students to approach understanding in their own ways.
like the question of exactly what is at the center of the universe? is it rocks?
//It seems there is a hostility towards teachers and reading your post makes it clear that it starts at home
I apologize if my post implies hostility towards teachers as I did not mean it in that regard.
What I meant is that children should be able to engage in discourse over the subject that the teacher is explaining. the discourse allows a teaching moment and it is not always the children who learn from them.
As a student in high school, I agree somewhat with what Munroe said about students these days. What she said and what everyone has said has really made me think about the quality of work I bring to the table. I don't mean to take shortcuts in any way and while it may be easy for some people to handle their classes without taking shortcuts while handling jobs, family, etc, I think it's human nature to want to do things the easy way sometimes and it's not right to just judge based on that. Everyone wants to take shortcuts, but whether they really do take short cuts is another matter.
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