Patriotism
Posted at 10:41 PM on February 19, 2008
by Bob Collins
(45 Comments)
Wince.
If you follow politics and world events at all, even Barack Obama supporters had to have winced when Michelle Obama said, ""Let me tell you something — for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country." (See the video and the full quote here.)
You had to know that we'd be off and running. The TV pundits would be occupied for days, the bloggers would be up in arms, and pretty soon the campaign would come down to a debate of who's the real American in the race. We all know where this is headed, because we've been down the road so many times.
Cindy McCain had a not-so-veiled retort to Mrs. Obama on Tuesday when she said, over and over again, at a campaign stop, "I'm proud of my country."
I see your wince, and I raise you a wink.
So let the record show that what we have here at this point in time are the spouses of two presidential candidates who are proud of their country.
Sure, but who's the "patriotic" one? That can't really be answered until we reignite the debate surrounding a much more critical question: what does it mean to be patriotic?
When last we visited this question, "Liberate Iraq" signs still dotted the lawns of America, and the American media was taking a pass on doing its job out of fear, some say, that it would be labeled unpatriotic.
USA Today's survey a few years ago revealed that 94.5% of those polled consider themselves patriotic, though agreement on what the word means was hard to come by.
In a general way, patriotism means love of country — love of one's country, one's homeland — a very simple emotional attachment to the place where you're from," says Jack Citrin, professor of political science at the University of California at Berkeley.
"After that, agreement tends to dissolve."
Some people religiously salute the flag; some wrap themselves in the flag — literally. Others burn it and say patriotism is about protest.
Peter Canellos of the Boston Globe, in a June 2005 op-ed piece, summoned the words of William Dean Howells, the superintendent of libraries in New York in 1912, when he said.
'While I would wish you to love America most because it's your home, I would have you love the whole world and think of all the people in it as your countrymen. You will hear people more foolish than wicked say 'Our country, right or wrong,' but that is a false patriotism and bad Americanism. When our country is wrong she is worse than other countries when they are wrong, for she has more light than other countries, and we somehow ought to make her feel that we are sorry and ashamed for her."
Canellos said no one -- left or right -- would disagree with Howells's claim that the U.S. has more light than other countries. "People disagree only on whether the greater light is immutable or must be fed, like a fire, through conflict and dissent."
What is your definition?
Comments (45)
Her husband is a U.S. senator who just won a decisive primary, she is a millionaire living in the chi-chi neighborhood of Hyde Park, and this is the FIRST time she has felt pride in her country -- is this not the very definition of narcisism?
Technically, she didn't say she was proud for the first time. Technically, she said for the first time, she is really proud.
I like the nuance. If you are a glass half full kind of person you would understand that everyone's proud of the country. And when the country starts to live up to its rhetoric, you become really proud.
Theodore Roosevelt (a pretty patriotic guy) is frequently noted as saying, "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." It's one of my favorite quotes - it speaks to how I see patriotism, and I think what Ms. Obama was getting at. Great patriotism comes of questioning and criticizing and getting at what it is that makes this country what it is - wonderful and quirky, sometimes right and sometimes wrong. I may be patriotic - but I'm not always proud of my country (just like I love my kid, but sometimes she does things I wish she wouldn't). It's just part of the deal.
Is patriotism the same as being proud - really proud - of your country?
To phrase the question differently, can a person both be embarrased by their country and patriotic?
As a white man, I don't find it particularly easy to chastise a black woman for saying that she hasn't felt really proud about her country before.
Take a pill greg.
I am kinda on the same wave as those who caught the word REALLY. There is proud. And there is REALLY proud. She is feeling really happy, really excited, really hopeful of all those who are backing a change. Really proud.
What I want to know is what the author is defining as "Our Country has more light".....in what reference is light?
I actually wouldn't get too hung up on "really." I wouldn't even get too hung up on "proud." I would get hung up on "country," actually.
I would stay focused on two questions: what is patriotrism AND what is country?
For example, if she's referring to the government -- and there's at least some evidence that she is -- then she probably has more company than a first glance might suggest. And what defines the government? The president? Congress? The governor? All taken together?
Remember what Jimmy Carter said, "the country deserves a government as good as its people."
Looking at the picture I think she sure would make a great First Lady.
Am I to gather that this is the first time in Michelle Obama's entire adult life that she found reason to be "really proud" of her country?
Amazing!!
Perhaps the little woman has spent too little time looking, or perhaps she is "really proud" of what this country has done for her -- this time.
Either way, the woman is a piece of work.
Technically, she didn't say she was proud for the first time. Technically, she said for the first time, she is really proud.
Ahhhhhh, let's all take a deep breath and enjoy the imminent return of Clintonian word parsing. I've missed it ever so much. The last eight years of actually knowing what the meaning of 'is' is has been oh so dreary.
Spin it however you want, but the fact remain, Ms. Obama is Technically 'really proud' of a world that winked in the direction of her overprivileged life, and Technically was never 'really proud' of all the wonderful things her nation has done that has benefited someone other than her.
Like maybe all those $trillion that flowed into federal programs that 'made' the Obama's and people like her.
OK, so now we have framed the arguments we knew we'd have.
So let's discuss what it means to be patriotic, now.
I am not sure how one gets from being proud of something one's country did - to patriotism.
That is quite a leap, and maybe that is why people are having a problem with Michelle Obama's statement.
We have heard too much from two extreme American camps: one that cannot find fault with America, and one that has a horrible time finding anything to be "really proud" of.
Let's not talk about patriotism, let's talk about what America has done right, what America has not done so well and what we should do in the future.
This is about the future after all.
Obviously, I don't think it's a leap because the discussion itself has already gotten wrapped up in the symbolism.
For political purposes, this will be characterized as one camp that loves its country, and one that doesn't.
So let me put it another way then:
What does it mean to love one's country.
See, we always have the discussion before we have the definitions. That's the problem.
I will make one comment about patriotism as well as love of spouse, family and country.
We do not profess to love something, then procede to tear it down at every opportunity. We can love our spouses, our children and our nation and still realize that they are not perfect, that they have their flaws.
People who profess to love, but can only, or mostly find fault, do not love - they are abusers, who love mostly themselves.
What would the public reaction be if Michelle Obama had said "Let me tell you something — for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of Barak"?
Gee, kinda changes the spin, don't it?
(Collins: How so?)
Yes I love my self.
And I am worth it Greg.
I love the U.S. when we are United. When we are working together to make a peaceful home for everyone. (Patriotic or unpatriotic) It seems that the only times we manage to tear down the white picket fence and lend a hand is when we are in crisis. bombings floods tornadoes ...oh my
I am an American hater when we are parelleled to orange skinned dark rooted blondes standing in the airport snapping their gum while talking on their cell phone accompanied by a yipping Toto encased in a neon plastic purse the size of China slung over their shoulder. Or even a more wholesome picture of the monster SUV chauffering (sp?) one or two noisy American children watching a movie American Redneck while shoveling a supersized value meal from Mickey D's.
When I hear Barack Obama speak (I have not heard Michelle speak, but she would be in the Obama camp, one would presume) he speaks in terms of "us" and "we" and working together to make this country the best it can be. When I hear other presidential candidates talk, they seem to use the word "I" a lot. "I will do this for you", or "I have a record of doing that." To me, one is uplifting, motivating, patriotic; the other appears more self-serving in nature.
I think that loving one's country means acknowledging the bad, applauding the good, and working with your neighbors in a spirit of brotherhood/sisterhood to make the bad things not as bad.
Bob,
You would not be taken aback had Michelle Obama said "Let me tell you something — for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of Barak"?
One would have to wonder what it takes for her to be "really proud".
I can say there were many times when I was "really proud" of my spouse and kids, and told them so.
If I heard someone suggest that for the first time in their adult life they were proud of their spouse --- I would suggest maybe they married the wrong spouse.
Would I be taken aback? Sure. But moreover, I'd sure want to know WHY she's not. I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that she simply HAS to be proud of Barack... just because.
She, I would presume, would have a perspective about the situation that has led her to a lifetime about not being proud, that I don't. I want to know what that is.
If she were to tell me what that was, the question then becomes, how does it affect how I view things? Does another perspective change my own? Or does it simply become another data point?
Patriotism? Love of Country? It's tough, Bob, because obviously these things are very individually defined. What I consider "love" has only a miniscule chance of every matching what someone else would believe it to mean.
Patriotism is naturally similar to that, so again, one question = 300,000,000 answers.
I can tell you what it means to me, though. It does not mean marching in lock step with our elected leaders, and it does not mean turning a blind eye to our faults and mistakes, and it does not mean stifling your opinion during the decision making process on large, complex, and important questions, but it does mean that once a decision on a course of action has been made, the time for open dissent has passed in favor of the time when we work together towards the solution, whether we agreed with the decision or not. That is, after all, why we elect representatives. That's why we (in theory) work with leaders that we may have voted against, because pendulums swing and we would expect the same from others were the situation reversed.
Consider a sports analogy: the quarterback of a football team may strongly disagree with the coach's decision to go for a field goal on 4th down, thinking his own preferred idea for a pass play into the end zone has a better chance of succeeding. He can make his argument on the sideline, but when the leader makes his decision, the time for discussion/debate is passed. It is not appropriate for the quarterback to then do whatever he can to cause the field goal to miss in order to validate his belief that he was right. Nor is it correct (patriotic, if you will) to get in front of the cameras after the game and say that the coach was an idiot for making that call, and that he should be replaced with his older brother so that he can finally be really proud of his team.
Flawed analogy? Sure! Fire away with counter arguments.
One would hope that a person married to someone as accomplished as Barack would have MANY occaisions to be "really proud" of him.
If she is not, I too would, damn well, want to know why not.
As for the country, we all, should, know the MANY things our country has done that, should, make us all "really proud" of ourselves.
One could understand why a poor or downtrodden person might focus on other things than what would bring pride, but not someone as privileged as Michelle Obama.
You can parse her words looking for technicalities, but keep in mind that there is some history of this kind of statement in her immediate family that may lend credence to what some people think she truly meant:
"You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest.
"Instead," he said, "I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."
A couple points in that quote bear further discussion. "I'm going to tell you what will make this country great" infers (again) that the country is not yet great, and the lack of "again" indicates that this country has never been great.
When parsing the language of the nominee from a party that thinks the entire meaning of the 2nd Amendment hinges on a single comma, I think it's fair to look at things this way.
And, "true patriotism [...] is speaking out..."
Is that all "true" patriotism is, or does there come a time when the "speaking out" is over and done, and a "true" patriot gets on board with the decision(s) rather than deliberately pulling against the common goal? Is a "my way or the highway" mentality true patriotism?
To me, the answer is no.
A football team is a dictatorship. Dissenting players can keep their opinion to themselves or find a new team. It's a system that perhaps works well, for football.
We live in a democracy where dissenting voices are encouraged to voice their opinions. We don't have to support or pretend we support the consensus either.
I echo that love of country means working to strengthen our communities, respecting the rights of others, and acknowledging our mistakes.
I have red and reread the last 4 or 5 comments and I still really (REALLY) struggle with the idea of once the President of our country makes a decision I have to go along with it. The football theory makes no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps if I played football it would. I was in the military and I understand the concept of teamwork-but I have always struggled with the concept of going against my true beliefs.
?
I have to say that I will always disagree with choosing war over peace and if given the opportunity i would go on camera and say our President is a boob for the choices he makes that I do not agree with.
Have I misunderstood your point Dave? Or is this just my slant on Patriotism?
I have red and reread the last 4 or 5 comments and I still really (REALLY) struggle with the idea of once the President of our country makes a decision I have to go along with it. The football theory makes no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps if I played football it would. I was in the military and I understand the concept of teamwork-but I have always struggled with the concept of going against my true beliefs.
?
I have to say that I will always disagree with choosing war over peace and if given the opportunity i would go on camera and say our President is a boob for the choices he makes that I do not agree with.
Have I misunderstood your point Dave? Or is this just my slant on Patriotism?
ok.....except for that recent post by Jim
I would have to agree that we are on the same page. Right on!
We live in a democracy
We live in a representative republic. There's a difference between that and a democracy, and it's a very significant one.
President of our country makes a decision ...
He doesn't make very many decisions alone. He makes proposals to Congress, and they (your representatives) either agree or disagree. If they disagree in large enough numbers, he is required to abide by their decision.
I will always disagree with choosing war over peace
That's well and good, but many other citizens disagree with you. No one is right or wrong, and we choose to live under a governmental model whereby we agree to allow our elected representatives to arrive at a decision for us. Patriotism is keeping your end of that bargain when the decision doesn't go the way you want it to, because you agree that this ability to make decisions this way and abide by the results is what makes our country what it is, and that our country being what it is is a good thing.
Can you tell me again what the definition of "is" is?
I'd like to know what GregS and Daveg are doing for their country. We know that c has served in the military and that's about as patriotic as you can get, I would think. I don't have any magnet ribbons on my car, but I am going to be a delegate at the state senate convention. And I volunteer in my neighborhood, say Hi to my neighbors when they walk by, smile at strangers. Those things seem to me to be fairly patriotic, too.
huh.
ok.
I see you are going with the majority of the representatives thing.....well I guess if you want the majority to go along with your ideas (this is if you are the President), you would have to have a Republican majority on your team (let's say football team). But then you have that damn Player Wellstone that doesn't agree with any of your ideas, so you have to get him off your team. He will not join any other team no matter how hard you make it for him. So lets make the plane crash.
There that's one down and how many more to go?
This is why we need Obama and his First Lady running the country.
Yah!!!!!
Keep smiling Michelle!
I'd like to know what GregS and Daveg are doing for their country.
That's an interesting argument, although it sure sounds like a Chickenhawk accusation.
I can't speak for Greg, but let's assume that I spent five years in the active duty military, three of which were on overseas assignments in Korea and Germany, and the following six years in the Air National Guard.
Does that make me more patriotic that someone that waves at their neighbors? I never believed it to be that way, and I would never want it to be that way, but if that's your definition, I can live with it.
But then you have that damn Player Wellstone that doesn't agree with any of your ideas, so you have to get him off your team.
No one said that. The point is, at some point we (or more accurately, the founders of our country) all implicitly agreed to abide by the decisions of those were selected to represent us. There are right means and times to disagree with those decisions, and there are wrong ways to disagree. It is not patriotic, for example, to sell military secrets to those that our representatives have decided should not have them. There are obviously other examples, and I agree that not all are clear cut. That's why I originally stated that you will potentially get 300,000,000 different answers to this question.
So lets make the plane crash.
If that says what I think it says, it is a despicable accusation.
Thanks for your answer, Daveg. You are putting words in my mouth, but that's OK by me. I know what I mean even if you aren't listening.
Thanks for serving in the military and being a patriotic citizen of the USA. I really mean that.
unthinkable accusation and perhaps one that would take quite an imagination; much like the idea of convincing someone to fly a plane into a building.
It can and did happen. And taking a look back in time at how everything played out, the idea of Wellstone's death; a murder, is not so mad afterall.
I was in the Air Guard too.
//So lets make the plane crash.
Oh, let's not even go there. This is the spewage of Professor Fetzer (a professor of Philosophy), someone I've offered to debate on his "evidence" in the Wellstone crash at any time or any place.
I recreated the Wellstone flight a week later and I've looked at the NTSB reports and the reason for the crash is pretty clear and just about anyone who's ever flown a plane can tell you that because it happens all the time. In fact, losing situational awareness and allowing your plane to crash by turning your attention to something other than flying is probably the #1 cause of plane crashes.
So let's just move on from that whole debate and the subsequent hyperbole and stay focused on the original questions.
There are other blogs folks can find to indulge themselves in that sort of stuff.
Please and thank you.
out of respect for you Bob, and afterall this is YOUR blog, I will zip my lip
; I
see zipped
No, I write the top post but I don't consider it MY blog. I'm just saying, "let's stay focused" on this particular question.
Michelle -
Sorry that I misread/misconstrued your statement.
My head read "I'd like to know what GregS and Daveg are doing for their country." in an accusatory tone, having seen and heard things said that way many, many times for a few years now. And often said by people that should know better.
Ok, I haven't been articulating myself very well. Let's chalk it up to cold medication.
What I'm really trying to say is this: In the past few years I have been very ashamed of my country. I didn't always feel this way, but when George Bush was elected to a second term in office, my hope for this great land faded away. The war he started (and I use "he" in a general way) in Iraq was wrong, very wrong. We were lied to about the reasons for starting this war. Many people have died, parents have been separated from their children, families broken up, good teachers sent away from their students - all for what? And now that we are there, are we supposed to support our government without question because they made decisions based on lies? No way. Not me.
Now that we are in Iraq, I have no idea how we are going to get out of it, but it's not up to me to decide. I can dwell on the fact that this war is being waged and hate my country because our president is a (in my opinion) narrow-minded man who doesn't give a rats a** about our country's place in the world, but I'm tired. I'm tired of trying to explain my point of view, tired of this very argument that we are having on this blog post.
But I can't give up. I need to have some kind of hope in my life, so I decided that I need to make a difference where I can, in small ways, with my neighbors and friends and people at the coffee shop or the grocery store. I don't claim that that is any more or less patriotic than serving in the military. My earlier post was simply a request for people posting to add some perspective to their comments.
Maybe Michelle Obama shouldn't have said what she said, but my takeaway from her speech is that maybe we really can have hope again. I'm trying not to be skeptical and trying not to get too excited about the possibilities of an Obama presidency, but the kernel of hope that I have inside of me is growing. Change is scary, but at this point in our history, I believe it is has to happen, or we are doomed.
It would be nice if we could all sit in a room together to have this discussion so that we could see each other's faces and hear the tone of our voices. Then perhaps my sincerity would come across more clearly. That's unlikely to happen, so let me just thank you all for participating in this debate, and I'll try to be a little more open minded when reading your posts. Hope you will do the same when reading mine.
(Thanks, Daveg. I appreciate it!!)
But I can't give up. I need to have some kind of hope in my life, so I decided that I need to make a difference where I can, in small ways,
Exactly. You work towards what you believe to be a better country in your way, without willing harm to the country's health or feeling that it is not worth working towards simply because you happen to disagree with its current course.
I disagree with just about everything in the preceding paragraphs, but that's ok. That's to be expected in a country as large and diverse as ours. You don't think we should have gone there, you don't think we should stay there, but you recognize that your disagreement is with the current crop of representatives, not the country as a whole.
You choose to place your hopes for the future in a different place than I would, but we will all gather together in November and decide that for ourselves.
That's what it means to live in a free country. I wish for that kind of freedom for the citizens of Iraq. If the November decision goes counter to my wishes, I'm not going to sit around complaining that our country is no longer great or that I should not feel proud to be a citizen of it simply because I didn't get my way. To do so would not only be the antithesis of patriotism, it would be petulant and adolescent.
I hope you feel better soon. I'm always torn between just suffering with the cold symptoms or dealing with the effects of the medicine. It's about 50-50.
Bush did not "lie" us into a war. He is guilty of many things such as overstating the case for war, and poorly excuting the war.
But he did not "lie". Everyone, including the French, Russians, Germans, British and Norweigians believed that Saddam had WMD.
Saddam admitted that he mislead the world to believe he had WMD.
Bush is guilty of believing despite the facts. A thing that the anti-war left is also guilty of.
I personnally am disgusted at the people who engage in anti-war demonstrations perhaps before they take issues with our leaders they should take a good hard look at their own.
I'm no political scientist, but one other thought I wanted to add about "my end" of being a part of our republic or democracy or whatever label we are applying. I think I am obliged, and I think it's patriotic to respect our laws. However, I see that as distinct from the idea of supporting the policies of our elected representatives. Furthermore, there are times when breaking our laws can be a necessary and patriotic act, such as refusing to sit in the back of the bus.
I can't really get into George Bush's head and know what he did or didn't believe, and I'm not about to believe anything that Saddam Hussein said or admitted to. I was trying to describe my journey and how I got to where I am today in regards to my perspective on patriotism. In summary, I'm going to look ahead, and be glad that I live in a place where people like Daveg and I can disagree and still understand that we both love our country.
(I'm with you on the cold meds, Daveg. I just take them so my co-workers don't have to listen to me blowing my nose all day!)
Jim, you make an excellent point about patriotic acts.
lip unzipped:
Saddam had WMD
Bush HAS ADD
re-assume zipped lip position.
For the first tme in this thread, I am really proud of you C. That was VERY funny.
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