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The Greatest Living Songwriter ... Macca?
Posted at 6:23 PM on January 21, 2008
by Mark Wheat
(102 Comments)
Last week in the Musicheads discussion Bill uncovered some comments from great songwriters lauding the songs of Mickey Newberry. Among them John Prine, who I would put near the top of a list of great songwriters saying : "Mickey Newbury is probably the best songwriter ever." That got me thinking, well who IS the Greatest ever and what do other great songwriters think about the subject themselves?
Perhaps because of my background, I always start with The Guinness Book of Records to tell me things like this, and they say; "McCartney is the most successful musician and composer in history, with 60 gold discs and sales of 100 million singles. His song "Yesterday" is listed as the most covered song in history and has been played more than 7,000,000 times on American television and radio."
A lot of you almost made The Beatles the Greatest Band Ever, so perhaps this would be consolation for that lose to Led Zep? Can he be considered without his partner Lennon? Well let's make it Greatest Living Songwriter to get over that argument! Although personally I was always more of a McCartney fan, Wings "Band on the Run" was the first album I brought with my own money in 1971. I certainly wasn't a fan of the Beatles before then, they were almost muzak to us in the UK and had a certain stigma of being my parents generation. But I do think his massive success with Wings solidifies his right to the crown without John.
Other lists of this nature have suggested that Dylan should be # 1, like this one from Paste magazine in June 2006. And Robin Hilton of NPR's "All Songs Considered" agrees. I was seriously considering being won over to their side this weekend and I again spent time with the "I'm Not There" s/t, but it struck me that people are less likely to try to cover Dylan songs because they tend to have an unmistakable style of his own, which should not be considered a good quality in this case. Songs from The Greatest Songwriter, should be easy for everyone to sing. I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of song structure, but Dylan's seem to rely more on many plucked notes, from the folk tradition, whereas McCartney uses chords which a lot of pop music has become reliant upon. Like those of Burt Bacharach, every time I hear one of his songs, it just seems so perfectly formed. Burt was another outside favorite of mine, he's had 70 US Top 40 hits and 54 in the UK, but I realized that he might have to be considered a part of a team too because many of his lyrics were written by Hal David. So I'll stick with Macca (the nickname that the Brits use for McCartney) who some people would accuse of only writing silly love songs, but what's wrong with that, I'd like to know?
It would be interesting to hear from songwriters who perhaps have tried to sing both Dylan and Macca songs, a new book takes this idea as basis for numerous interviews with some of the finest songwriters alive such as Smokey Robinson, Willie Nelson, Jewel, Kenny Chesney, Cat Stevens, Jack Johnson, Sheryl Crow, John Legend, John Mellencamp, Ray Charles, Clint Black, Rob Thomas, Dolly Parton, Rufus Wainwright, Bob McDill, Lyle Lovett, Keith Urban, Beck, M.Ward, Lou Reed, Roger Miller, Grant-Lee Phillips, and John Denver. It's called;
Song: The World's Best Songwriters on Creating the Music That Moves Us (American Songwriter Magazine)
Are you with me or against me, who is the Greatest Living Songwriter?
AND who would you suggest as an outside contender, like Mickey Newberry is for John Prine?
Or perhaps suggest someone younger who you think will grow into the role and why?
Comments (102)
Steven Patrick Morrissey is the greatest living songwriter. As much as I enjoy the works of other songwriters, there's nothing quite as good as his catalog. The songs catch me right away and immerse me. They're fulfilling no matter the length, the short ones wrap everything up efficiently and the few long ones seem to go by in just a few minutes anyway. My favorites are "This Charming Man" and "Everyday is Like Sunday." The lyrics are also excellent, from droll and cheeky to shadowy.
For being ahead of the times, top kudos to McCartney and Costello, some of their more forceful songs hit me like the wind's chill these days. They could be released as new today and be fresh (not in a retro way).
who is the Greatest Living Songwriter?
Bob Dylan. It's as stilted and obvious as saying the Beatles are the greatest group, but it's no less true. Bruce Springsteen is a close second, followed by Brian Wilson, Bacharach, and McCartney.
who would you suggest as an outside contender?
I yelped with delight when I opened the All Things Considered article and saw the picture of Aimee Mann. She is my favorite songwriter working today; I love just about every song she's ever written. Stephin Merritt is my other favorite; his 69 Love Songs are a fascinating examination of the art of writing songs in the first place, not only covering a wide variety of genres but of songwriting methods as well.
[who is] someone younger who will grow into the role?
Sufjan Stevens and Jens Lekman. I feel that Stevens is head-and-shoulders above just about every singer-songwriter in the sheer depth he brings to even the most innocuous song -- "Get Behind Me, Santa!", for instance. Lekman may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I've been consistently impressed with his ability to make truly profound observations through his lyrics.
This is going to be interesting. I'm already going to have to discount Andy's pick of Morissey. Morrissey and Johnny Marr were more or less a team. The lyrics were Morrissey's. but the music was probably about 90% Johnny Marr's. Unless you're counting songwriting as only lyrics.
I'd have to pick Lennon over Macca anyday.
Come on, Mark! You've decide to arbitrarily omit Dylan because, and let me see if I've got this right, he's got an unmistakeable style and he's hard to cover? That makes a lot of sense.
Whether or not other artists have been successful covering Dylan is irrelevant. To me, it's about the impact an artist has had throughout his entire career. Dylan will always make new and compelling music. What has McCartney done for us lately, I would ask. No disrepect to Paul and his Beatles/Wings legacy but he just doesn't hold a candle to Bob Dylan.
Nobody does.
gotta agree with Frick on this one - i can only count Morrissey as a lyricist, not a songwriter (maybe your next question, Mark, can be best songwriting team?).
but i must also kind of agree with Tony, as well, Mark - no Dylan? Paul McCartney instead? that doesn't make sense to me either - unless you are purposefully trying to incite dissension and debate, in which case you are crazy like a fox, sir.
so, i'll have at you - McCartney doesn't even make my top 10 (not that i started out by making a top 10 - it just happened).
my number one songwriter (in the english language at least) of the past 50 years has got to be Elvis Costello. nobody in my book has shown greater mastery of both language and music, producing works of consistantly high quality, feeling, and importance. the period between "This Year's Model" (when he got with the Attractions) and "Punch the Clock", in particular, gives us some of the best songs ever written - they are angry, funny, clever, but not so clever as to overshadow their subject matter, which often times is gravely serious. my favorite display of his talents is "Beyond Belief", from "Imperial Bedroom", with its many internal rhymes and stream-of-consciousness feel, but you could easily pick anything from within there - from "Radio Radio" & "Pump it Up" to "Everyday I write the Book". and - add to it all that he is still producing, and still pushing himself in new & different directions. the man has maintained his artistic integrity despite his longevity. i don't think you can say this about McCartney.
and as for Dylan, i think Bob has never met a rhyming couplet he hasn't liked - he's thrown off plenty of real clunkers in his day. i'll give him that he revolutionized popular music (at the same point the Beatles were revolutionizing it as well), but musically he just doesn't seem to be expansive enough, at least not for me.
other songwriters i would consider "up there" (keeping it to 10):
Dylan
Joni Mitchell
Tom Waits
Springsteen
Randy Newman
Aimee Mann
Stephen Merritt
David Bowie
Robyn Hitchcock
neither Lennon nor McCartney were as great on their own as they were together.
(and, if we were to expand this to non-english speaking popular music, we would have to include Jobim and Caetano Veloso as well.)
60 Gold Records and a lot of hit singles do not necessarily equate to great songwriting, only excellent marketing and sales.
Great songwriting begins and ends with Tom Waits. Period. End of story.
Outside Contender(s)?
Tough call. Nick Cave, Bruce Springsteen, Dee Dee Ramone, Joe Strummer, Jay Farrar, Dylan ... that's a potentially, ridiculously long list.
Young Up-And-Comer(s)?
Tim Kasher (Cursive, The Good Life)
Win Butler (Arcade Fire)
Craig Finn (The Hold Steady, Lifter Puller)
Neko Case
Townes Van Zandt was the greatest songwriter of all time, and I'll stand on Steve Earle's coffeetable in my Birkenstocks and say that!
Outside contenders?
AP Carter
Woody Guthrie
Bob Dylan
Joni Mitchell
Burt Bacarach(SPELLCHECK!)
Paul has recycled the same song for 40 years, its all the same love song over and over. He has written alot of popular songs, but notice how repetitive and mundayne the lyrics are! I love the Beatles, but it isn't like they are saying anything besides LOVE LOVE LOVE. And we all already knew that LOVE is great.. who doesn't? Paul has nothing ong Burt.
Well, since you've limited us to living songwriters that leaves the late Mickey Newbury out. Nonetheless, as a matter of interest I suggest that everyone check out Mickey's discography at www.mickynewbury.com. As to greatness it speaks for itself. The discography is a labor of love compiled by Mickey's friend and biographer, Joe Ziemer.
I can't believe no one has mentioned Pete Townsend!!!! I mean come on... some of the greatest recordings ever Tommy, Quadrophenia, the list goes on
Has anyone heard of Leonard Cohen? Yes, he's old, but not dead yet.
I think Paul Mc Cartney ala. Macca, ala. the tortoise?
ah.. is the greatest living song writer,
named
Paul Mc Cartney.
which is a pretty damn good thing.
just having a laugh since its a "best" question
as in the line of, "if you were on an island, and could only have one record, what would it be"
which would probably be the white album, oh
one can only dream.
be well Mark
Of course it is easy to say Dylan, that's the cool answer.
He has more cache, now. He has gained popularity recently,
apparently from great marketing, some good movies
a few books, and a lingerie ad. 'Greatest' does however refer
to the popular culture at large where Macca has undoubtedly
had a bigger influence. Bob has chosen to represent the
counter-culture, thanks perhaps to watching what happened
to the Beatles at the start of their career.
Macca was plunged into mainstream relevance at a very
early stage in the career and I think has dealt with it well,
intelligently, and with humor. Of course Kurt, they're mostly
love songs, why does love inspire so much art, because everyone,
artists and audience needs, as much love in their lives as possible.
Bob can always get away with being the cranky old guy off to one side,
that's an easier role to play in my book.
I'm just tired of seeing my heroes derided for being popular.
His last album, although I don't listen to him anymore, sold
well but of course it was in sold through a coffee shop
so that's not cool either.
BTW...Tony, I didn't "arbitrarily omit " Bob as you suggested,
I explained that it was a close call. If the art of songwriting is
considered to be about conveying emotions to a large audience
Macca has succeeded better than Bob, who's style is unique and
less accessible. Dylan, had a very long 'dark period' too when
his albums didn't appear interesting to anyone, even fans accept that
he has just pulled that around with his last 2 or 3 records.
What has Paul done lately, helped protect the legacy of his band's work,
recently having an animated movie and a live stage show successfully use their tunes.
I have never heard an artist referred to be as being Dylanesque unless it was
a diss. But more people have been compared to the Beatles than any other
band ever. So whether he has made 'compelling' music recently is irrelevant.
Speaking of love songs, an nice outside bet for me is David Gedge of Wedding Present
and Cinerama fame. John Peel once said of him "He writes the best love songs ever".
He has a unique style that seems to capture the way I think and speak better than anyone else.
And I would agree with Kevin, I hope that Craig Finn is revered 50 years from now.
Pam, Bill DeVille mentioned Townes Van Zandt too, but can anyone explain why he comes up,
for those of us who don't know him very well ?
Keep them replies coming and we'll read some and play the suggestions on
Thursday night between 8 and 9.
I'm embarrassingly unfamiliar with his oeuvre, but I have to throw Warren Zevon's name into the ring.
Sorry, scratch that. I forgot this was a discussion of the greatest "living" songwriters, but I figured since we had already brought up Mickey Newbury and Townes Van Zandt...
Mickey Newbury discovered Townes in Houston and brought him to Nashville. Kris Kristofferson learned how to write songs on Mickey's house boat in Nashville. Mickey inspired Tony Joe White, Larry Gatlin, Johhny Rodrigez, etc., etc. etc. Probably, second only to "Yesterday" as a cover is "An American Trilogy" by Mickey. Go figure.
You aren't really concerning yourself with who is the greatest songwriter, are you? You see, what's really great about music is nobody is the greatest--it ain't boxing. Nobody is standing toe to toe. Each songwriter is free to write his/her own songs knowing that no one else can write them better. These standards of measurment that are pushed in our society may work with Presidents and lawyers, etc. But, they don't apply to music. So, when election day comes, choose your candidate and be prepared to accept whom the majority takes. Then, go home to your vast record collection and waste no time assembling some kind of ridiculous hierarchy for it.
Hey Mark,
Thanks for the Gedge mention. Couldn't agree more.
I agree with Kevin; Tom Waits wins hands down if only great songwriting counts. If it's a popularity contest McCartney wins, but Waits has the ability to write poetic lyrics and great love songs which are both beatiful and understandable without being saccarine, like "Downtown Train" and "Jersey Girl." In addition, unlike McCartney, Waits writes on a wide variety of other subjects and experiences. "Shiver Me Timbers" is just one example and a great description of the emotions of putting out to sea. Comparing Waits' songs to McCartney's is like comparing a steak dinner to a doughnut. They both taste good, but one leaves you fulfilled.
Take this as you will, but Frank Black and Kim deal are pretty good song writers... I agree with Eric that "what's really great about music is nobody is the greatest"
...
There is this old woman
She lives down the road
You can often find her
Kneeling inside of her hole
And I often ask her
Are you looking for the mother lode?
Huh?
No.
No my child, this is not my desire
And then she said
Im digging for fire!
Ok. I'll throw in Smokey Robinson. He should be at least be mentioned if not for "Tracks of My Tears" alone. Dylan even famously called him "America's greatest living poet". I also can't leave out Neil Young. And I totally agree Brian Wilson is way up there. Prince probably deserves some props too, even with so many flops...
Oh and I agree that Morrissey shouldn't be on this list as he is always part of a song writing collaboration. But I'm pretty sure he writes all his own melodies, not just the lyrics. I would argue those vocal melodies are a pretty big part of any song... So assuming Marr told Andy and Mike exactly what to play, I would still only give him, let's say 75-80 percent of the music credit. And who knows maybe he helped Morrissey out with a word here and there.. ("Hey Johnny, I need something that rhymes with "flatulent pain in the arse...".")
Outside contenders?:
Stephin Merritt
David Gedge (Wedding Present/Cinerama)
Jim James (My Morning Jacket)
Mark Linkous (Sparklehorse)
Eric is right. Each of us to our own. And one of the greatest in my "vast record collection" left of the other day. John Stewart.
Thanks, Eric, for waking us up!
I think one of the greats has to be Prince. Just look at all of the songs he's written for other artists besides himself that have become well known. "Nothing Compares 2 U" and "Manic Monday". "5 Women" for Joe Cocker. He had a hand in "Stand Back" by Stevie Nicks. I think the fact that he's written for people with different styles of music should be looked at too. I'm not saying he's the greatest but definitely should be considered one of the greats.
I have to give it up toDolly Parton on this one- what an amazing songwriter, and I think a lot of people forget that amongst other things. so many of her songs have driven me to tears, and many others just put a smile on my face. Such a talented woman!!
And of course, Prince. He has such impeccable style and timing with his songwriting- my favorite line from a song ever is the first line in "Little Red Corvette".
Will Garrison... a Minnesota boy who a has been influenced by Waits, Dylan, Cave and the like. The influences are there and his songwriting is brilliant. Check him out. seriously. www.myspace.com/willgarrison
DAVID BOWIE. No one compares. McCartney- almost. Not quite.
I think something is to be said for both Macca and Dylan regarding the number of their songs that have become a part of the cultural tapestry. Some may rip on them for their popularity or say they are easy choices (especially McCartney) but how many of the other writers have contributed so much?
Dylan was a much better lyricist, but I think Macca is the better all around songwriter. However , I think the covers argument is a little weak as there have been fantastic covers of Dylan songs by the Byrds, Jimi (who also doesn't get enough credit as a songwriter) and others.
This is really interesting. If it were strictly on commercial success, there'd actually be a different sensibility to this discussion. You might have Barry Gibb, Dolly Parton, Neil Diamond, Barry Manilow and others listed. Would Benny & Björn rate? They're a team, but they've written some truly pristine pop. Some songs that are nearly ideal are very singular or are perfect for the time, and that makes for some shining moments. (One moment while I wave to Iggy Pop...)
But I hear in your statement a search for a true songwriter, a composer (or as someone at The Current said, "a songcrafter") who has a particular skill & sensibility. Well, sure, Dylan's good for that mystery and search for transcendence.
As to McCartney, I love his work, I really do, and granted I haven't heard his latest. That said, I personally think he does better work without yes-men around. Even single songwriters have outside input or fine tuning, be it people, producers, or other stimulants. Influence abounds.
while i certainly admit that both McCartney & Dylan have had a wider range of influence upon the culture & general heritage of songwriting, i still will hold that Elvis Costello is the better songwriter. i think in part (& only in part, mind you) McCartney & Dylan's vast cultural impact was due to timing - they happened to get the ball rolling, as it were; we had no concept in pop music of the singer/songwriter before them. but do i think they were better than Elvis? no. does Elvis owe them an artistic debt - most definitely. maybe mostly to McCartney - although there are Dylanesque elements to some of his work, particularly early on (the anger & bitterness of his wit, say). but definitely in both his flair for tight melodies & his power of lyrical observation, Elvis is very McCartneyesque, as it were.
but merely having adjectives named after you does not mean you're the best, & i would offer that Elvis betters McCartney in the long run, particularly lyrically. his powers of observation, and the way he pulls those observations into a story he tells you in song, are better & more complete than McCartney's. i always felt Paul couldn't finish his songs - he needed John there to help pull it together, & without him on his own alot of his work feels incomplete - like its a good start, but there's no killer punchline at the end to tell you what it was all about. and mind you Mark, i was right there with you - my first album purchase on my own was "Band on the Run". that was a great album - but that was that. "Venus & Mars" was no way near as good, and things slid from there - & let's not bring up "Silly Love Songs" or "Let Them In". if Sir Paul were a baseball pitcher, he'd be the starter you'd pull by the 6th inning, assuming you got through 5 with him.
and as for Bob - i seem to recall in some late-seventies song he had some lines that went like: "you can call me Jimmy/ or you can call me Johnny..." and it just went downhill from there.
i would make the case that Elvis has produced the greater volume of consistantly quality work, embodying both a tuneful musicality and an incisive lyrical wit. he is the Cole Porter of our generation, only better.
Once I was alone in an elevator with Paul McCartney. He farted and the noise had a little tune to it. He's that good. Also, it smelled like strawberries.
Bowie, Bowie, and ... Bowie
Easy, Joni Mitchell.
As Janet Jackson said in one of many reinterpretations of Big Yellow Taxi, "Joni Mitchell never lies." Mitchell's works run the gamut of emotions and experience. Her work is thoughtful and complex while somehow also being sweet and accessible. All of her songs are love songs, but some for places like Spain and California. Joni knows how to tell a story and tells all our stories; her songs are exotic and familiar. The bowl of oranges in A Chelsea Morning becomes much more, taking on significance in a sun-filled room at daybreak. Every word she writes is packed with meaning and liveliness and together their effect together produces lyrical alchemy.
Neil Young. Neil Young. Neil Young. His songs are mesmerizing, his voice cannot be duplicated, and he has stood the test of time. Tell me anyone else that can make two chords sound so good ("unknown legend"). Plus "cinnamon girl" is one of the most recognizable riffs of all time. He's amazing solo or with a band. Best living songwriter period.
As one of those English major types, I am a sucker for poetic lyrics as a measure of a great song. Nobody better than Frank Reader, the main man of Scotland's Trash Can Sinatras. Suzanne Vega is also way up there.
Syd Barrett
APPLES & ORANGES!!!
Paul McCartney. He could have retired in 1965 and still take the prize. By then he had written and co-written scores of hits that resound to this day as the pinnacle of the craft. He was fully responsible for All my Loving, Cant buy me Love, And I love Her, Things we said Today, I'm Down, and Yesterday,(just a few of the standouts). The original idea for She Loves You, and I Saw her Standing There were his. (Unless you were alive when those songs were released, it's impossible to understand the Revolutionary Impact of that SOUND).
But of course he didnt retire, and went on to give us the masterpiece Hey Jude. Penny Lane, Let It Be, Here There and Everywhere...the list goes on.
There are many gorgeous melodies from his solo career as well, and he continues to move forward, always trying new things, a tireless craftsman, poet, painter... Given his body of work, nobody comes close.
Let me preface by allowing that I don't really know what I'm talking about. Or I know exactly what I'm talking about. Or both.
But the songwriting I admire has as much to do with craftmanship as it does a great or memorable melody. And the bar for that used to be so much higher. A lot of anonymous guys in the 1960s (before my time) that never even charted or made a dime had it all over the current era in this regard.
So for me, it comes down to those who assemble of pop songs as painstakingly as Mozart and make it look as easy as making a pastrami sandwich.
By that standard, no one living can touch the hem of McCartney's garment. This can be proven mathematically.
The next tier:
- Ray Davies
- Brian Wilson
- Andy Partridge
- Prince
Honorable mentions:
- Robert Schneider
- John Prine
- Richard Thompson
- Neil Hannon
Collaborative effort:
- Radiohead, on the basis of OK Computer alone
I don't know what to do with Dylan. He gets his own container. I think he's happier there anyway.
not that i'm changing my vote, but i agree with the need to consider Joni Mitchell in this as well. and to the person who asked regarding Neil Young whether anyone else ever did as much with just 2 chords, what about Lou Reed? nice to see some people remember Leonard Cohen & Davies as well. i hope that Bob Marley's omission is merely due to the fact that he is dead.
that said, i think its interesting that most of the people discussed produced most of their work by the end of the seventies. what's up with that? here's a short list i came up of primarily post-70's songwriters i feel worthy of consideration (again, not that it changes my vote for EC):
Billy Bragg
Andy Partridge
Paul Westerberg
Frank Black (but not Kim Deal)
PJ Harvey
Richard Buckner
and if i had a vote for outsider songwriter, it would go to Lawrence, obtuse & maddeningly literate singer/songwriter for the criminally overlooked '80's band Felt.
Everyone is bringing up some great songwriters here, and supporting their assertions with compelling reasoning. Awesome. Before I vault into my post, I need to throw another name into the ring…Tom Waits. Being a fan for some time now, it’s been such a pleasure to watch the arch of his musical career over the last few decades. I don’t know if he’d win the contest of greatest songwriter, but he certainly deserves an honorably mention…to which I’d like to raise a toast with a dirty glass of Harvey’s Bristol Cream. Cheers. When considering who the greatest songwriter might be, I think it’s important to not only think about what that person may have done for pop music; but for music as a whole. Paul has that sort of talent that even if you don’t like the music he writes, you can still respect it as an intelligent, emotional contribution to art. I’d like to point out his foray into orchestral and chamber music as an example. His 1999 release “Working Classical” is a great example of an accomplished rock-n-roller maturing, maybe mellowing, into more cerebral sound. The CD didn’t sell all that well, but there are some real gems on it. “Spiral” is 10 minutes of bliss in my mind, with a completely incredible fanfare that crescendos right in the middle of the thing. It’ll raise goose bumps, trust me. The string quartet arrangements of “Haymakers” and “The Lovely Linda” are nice as well. I usually track through the Loma Mar Quartets treatments of Wings/McCartney standards “My Love” and “Maybe I’m Amazed”. These tracks however may be a way for classical music lovers and pop music fans to meet in the middle. While I’m on the crossover soapbox, you may also want to give a listen to “Seven: A Suite for Orchestra” from Tony Banks (of Genesis fame) and if you like that one, definitely give the “Heroes Symphony” Philip Glass a chance. It’s based on the David Bowie/Brian Eno album of the same name. I can just imagine Paul McCartney accepting the honor of Greatest Songwriter in History just as Tom Waits raises his glass then falls backward off the second place podium into a potted plant. My two cents…no letter bombs please. Cheers, Scott
I don't think I have seen her mentioned yet, so I will throw Carole King into the mix. Wasn't Tapestry one of the best-selling albums of all time for awhile? Besides that, you have "(You Make Me Feel Like) A Natural Woman", "Up On the Roof", "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" and "One Fine Day" among others, plus the lesser known but brilliant "Goin' Back" and "Wasn't Born to Follow". Oh rubbish, I forgot about Gerry Goffin. I'm throwing her in anyway, along with Laura Nyro for "Stoned Soul Picnic", "Save The Country", "And When I Die"; "Eli's Coming", "Stoney End" and "Gibsom Street", which amazes me every time I hear it.
Thanks for the nod, Mark Wheat.
The songs of Townes Van Zandt are the purest, most earthy expressions of music I've heard, since the writings of Hank Williams. Townes' work is genuine and unpretentious. Listen to "White Freightliner Blues," for the best road song ever! Catch the humor in "No Deal," when he talks about buying a car. Hear his tender references to women throughout his songs, as in "Loretta," and his plain love for his friends in "If I Needed You."
(He and Hank died the same day, New Year's, 44 years apart.)
I'll go with Ed Vedder.
No matter if you love him or absolutely despise him due to how he acst in concert, Ryan Adams is hands down the most poetic songwriter in the last 5 to 10 years dating back to his Whiskeytown material. AMAZING lyricist.
No matter if you love him or absolutely despise him due to how he acts in concert, Ryan Adams is hands down the most poetic songwriter in the last 5 to 10 years dating back to his Whiskeytown material. AMAZING lyricist and live performer - now only if he'd put on a full show here now that he's sober.
Townes V-Z.
why?
His songs have been covered successfully--very successfully--by performers with different vocal and musical styles: Willie Nelson, Emmylou Harris, Lyle Lovett, Norah Jones, John Prine, the Tindersticks, Robert Plant/Alison Krauss, the Cowboy Junkies, and many many many more.
His lyrics are poetically spare; performer and listener fill in meanings that are alluded to, invited, but not demanded or forced.
Despite their spare qualities, the songs are not obtuse: they drive right to the emotional and psychological heart of human experience.
His music has stood the test of time.
His own performances are absolutely riveting.
Check Townes out, Mark.
It amazes me that Paul Simon has not yet been suggested. As Ralph Gleason said, Simon and Garfunkel had "taken the creation of the lyrics and the music out of the hands of the hacks and given it over to the poets."
Intelligent lyrics and and moving, memorable music does a great songwriter make.
I agree with the comments about the greatness of TVZ. But remember, the poll is for the greatest LIVING songwriter.
I actually can't disagree with Mark's choice of McCartney, even if I'd only base it on his first 15 years as a recording songwriter (1962-1977). Since then, his output has been varied...some pretty good, mostly mediocre, and some that has been a little embarassing. But I suspect Lennon would have had some weak 80s albums too, had he been given the chance to live long enough.
My outsider choice would have to be Richard Thompson. He showed amazing songwriter skills from the early Fairport Convention albums, released some amazing albums with his wife Linda in the 70s, and has continued strong output in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. I can't even find a point in his career when the songwriting hasn't been strong. He's one of the very few 60s musicians who survived the 80s without showing a lag in his writing. Sure, a few weak tracks pop up here and there, but I can't name many songwriters who have maintained a consistent quality for 40+ years. (Not even Dylan.) For me, that's a remarkable accomplishment. Perhaps it helps that he's never been wildly popular and has never lived quite as comfortably as Macca, Dylan, and others. In other words, he still has to work for his living.
If we're talking about popularity and commercial success, let's talk about Elton John as well . . . though you would run into the duo problem again with Bernie Taupin.
Tough question, it’s certainly full of subjective possibilities. I’ll just throw out a name I haven’t seen mentioned yet. In recent years James Mercer of The Shins has emerged as an incredibly gifted and consistent song writer. His ability to craft pop songs with great hooks put him right up there with Macca and Brian Wilson When you add his far out and poetic lyrics to the mix you get something pretty unique and noteworthy. I’d say he belongs on this list any day.
This has been a great debate, as per usual, and I agree with a lot of the other choices (Dylan, Elvis C, Neil Young, etc.), but because of this discussion, I remembered I had a book called “Songwriters on Songwriting” by Paul Zollo. He interviewed dozens of songwriters about process, inspiration, etc. Most of the people he interviewed are on the lists that have been generated here. Dylan, Neil Young, Townes Van Zandt, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen, Laura Nyro, Carole King…
I opened the book to the first interview and there on the page was the picture of Pete Seeger and it struck me that HE is the greatest living songwriter. No one has championed the power of song or songwriting like he has. His songs are timeless, and he’s done more to use the power of music to comfort, unite, stir people up, make a statement or just share the joy of singing songs, and making sure that those songs get passed on.. Sure McCartney can get everyone to sing “Na Na na..Na-na-na-nahhhh, Hey Jude…” all together, but to be in the same room with Mr. Seeger leading the singing, sharing his songs and songs from around the world, there’s nothing like it at all. I’ve had the privilege of seeing him perform twice and it was probably the most magical music-going experience I have ever had. His songs did help to change the world, from singing about unions with Woody Guthrie at factories and farms, to singing “We Shall Overcome” with Martin Luther King Jr. at the March on Washington. I know that Bruce Springsteen’s “The Seeger Sessions” made the Current’s top albums of that year, or at least a few DJ’s lists.
Long may he wave.
BOB SEAGER
Johnny Cash
Odis Redding
(GREATS)
But Who is the WORST songwriter?
My vote goes for Kate Nash ...haha (PLEASE STOP PLAYING THAT WOMAN!)
Okay, it's a sign from above. I just turned on the Wonderground Radio stream and after Mark's station ID Who is the first song by but PETE SEEGER. Coincidence? I think not.. :)
Bob Seger!? HA! i'm proud to say my house has always been a Bob Seger-Free Zone. now, Pete Seeger on the other hand...
my son just reminded me of 2 more recent songwriters for consideration:
Damon Albarn (Blur/Gorillaz/etc.)
Conor Oberst (Bright Eyes)
the kid's already got quite a catalog under his belt - still, that last album (Casadaga) really shows the growth of his craft very well. add to that, there are few songs that can move me like "Old Soul Song".
Ryan Adams is a genius singer/songwriter. He's my personal favorite, no question. But his approach is overwhelmingly personal, which makes him less of a voice who appeals to a wide swathe of people.
Neil Young is up there.... But I gotta go with Dylan. I think it's sort of silly to say that Dylan is the "cool" answer, Mark Wheat...he's got more breadth, depth, and more to say than McCartney, always has. (Lennon + McCarthney = different story.) Dylan engages with our society and culture and comments on it, he influences opinion, that's what makes him relevant, and what makes his songs more than pretty--they're powerful.
I've got to choose Alex Turner (Arctic Monkeys) as a young songwriter who will grow into an influential force in music.
Who's Mickey Newbury and Macca? Have no idea who these guys are so must not be that good. Hahaha....LENNON/McCARTNEY is the greatest songwriter ever. Two people, one entity, but that just shows the depths of being their songwriting came from. But I really think this has to be answered by genre of music because there are alot of African American styles of music that nobody has listed even one songwriter from here and this is very much a one genre audience.
It seems to me that since the Beatles disbanded, Paul's popular work has consisted of either endlessly repetitive pleasant melodies, or a string of short "jingles" cobbled together to make something long enough to be called a song.
I would give my vote for "Greatest Songwriter" to a bit of a darkhorse: Namely, Mr. Andy Partridge of XTC fame.
'Nuff said m8.
So I have to agree that great song writing is about more than lyrics. I mean Tom Waits is a great lyricist, but please don't make me listen to his music for more than 20 minutes. I feel the same about Dylan. Sorry, but it's true. Is love, love, love the most creative and touching lyric of all time - of course not, but everyone knows it and whether or not you admit it, everyone likes it. Who feels bad when that song is played?
And please, let's not forget our FEMALE WRITERS. HELLO!
Dolly Parton
Neko Case
Lucinda Williams
The Indigo Girls
Diana Krall
Liz Wright
Aimee Mann
And I hate to say it, but Mariah Carey is one of the most successful singer/songwriters of my generation....just some food for thought. And before you hate on me, read the writer credits.
I'm not going to argue that any of these are the best of ALL TIME, because quite frankly it's a pointless argument - I mean in the end who cares, you listen to what you like and you like what you listen to. But if we're going to engage - don't forget the ladies. Please.
Just had to give a nod to Mr. John Prine. He can take such a sad story and make it a feel good happy tune. Laura
While I wholeheartedly love the Beatles, I can't put Paul up there as number 1. I think a lot of people, especially musical artists forget that the best part about bands in compromise. Paul was great because of John, without the fighting that drives all the great bands apart the writing would be boring, uninspired or if nothing else way too "out there". Music is a give and take process, and when artists go solo there is nobody to take them down a peg, to tell them "dude that song sucks" or "maybe we should tweak this"
(See Axl Roses post GNR)
For this reason Dylan is the man, timelessly simple yet refreshingly complex.
I also think Lucinda Williams is great
Another stranger maybe less expected nomination is James Maynard Keenan of Tool and Perfect Circle. Yes technically he is just a member of a band, but he has had great success in both suggesting that he is the reason these bands have been as successful as they have. McCartney was great as a beatle but dropped off considerably with Wings and his solo stuff.
Oh plz brock spare me Dylan.... Dylan are you kidding me, he is sort of like Garrison Keillor, he tells stories and instead of having a laughing audience behind him he has Folk music behind him. His "music" sounds the same song after song.
I think the greatest song writer would have to be
-Conor Oberst or
-Elliot Smith
Not many people can write music so deep and true as these guys.
I have been a huge fan of Rufus Wainwright for many years. Elton John stated .." he's probably the greatest songwriter alive on the planet right now". That has some weight, I'd say. I've seen him perform with his band - he is perfection in timing, arrangement...etc....like I said, HUGE fan!
Rufus has the ability to combine so many styles and genres, it is nearly impossible to de-tangle all of his influences. His sense of metaphor used to describe personal, yet universal experiences is outstanding. Songs that slay me EVERY single time I listen:
Go or Go Ahead ( I have not ever heard this one on the Current Hint hint) , Art Teacher, Gay Messiah.
Thanks for the question. There are some great nominations....Pete Seiger is an obvious choice!
Tom Waits & kathleen Brennen ~(lest we forget she gets Co credit on most of his stuff) Truely Amazing Performance artist to say the least AND a brilliant writer!
Shane McGowan (Pouges)~Still alive? completely heartwrenching songwriter. Brilliant
VAN MORRISON~ Hello! Way better than MACCA...
Warren Zevon~ amzing lyirics, better composition
Rhett Miller~ Old 97"s the man can turn a phrase!
John Prine~ Great story teller
Michael franti(Spearhead)~ ALWAYS makes me think
I have always HATED this question! (along with Bob Segar) Steve Earle is one of my personal favorites, is he the best? Nope but he gives props to most of these people. I once saw him play in between John Prine and Shane Mcgowan and he said he was sandwiched in between two of the best. And he would say Townes, which I don't get! If I were forced, although I love Pete Seegar, I'll vote for VAN MORRISON.....
well i think i'm the first one to mention him... but if we're talking about great songwriters with the last name of Finn, kiwi Neil Finn would have to be my first choice.
as far as i'm concerned easily one of, if not the best songwriters of the 80's, whose recent 2 solo albums are quite fantastic as well.
oh, and as far as "newcomers" that will be heralded as some of the great songwriters years from now... i also cannot believe i'm the first person in this thread to mention Jeff Tweedy?
nothing against Sufjan Stevens or Jens Lekman, but mark my words, after all is said and done he's gonna be compared alongside Neil Young.
Greatest living songwriter, huh? That for sure is just each's opinion. What I see above are all just mediocre songwriters.
Is Macca the greatest? Maybe not, but then again success is earned and there are quite a bit of people that would rather listen to another "silly love song" instead of some lamenting complainer about everything and anything in lifeset to so-called music. And Paul did not get success by people ignoring his music. And I'm selective on where and whom I will spend my money!
I prefer Paul's music anytime over John Lennon's music or anyone that's just okay. Now Leonard Cohen, I do like. But that's my taste.
How do you measure greatness? There are so many talented songwriters out there and the greatest is going to be different for everyone of course. Just imagine this same posting over on KQRS. It would probably be someone from the Eagles of course. Or Bob Seeger. Now here is my list.
The Tops:
Pete Townsend, David Bowie, Joni Mitchell, Elvis Costello, Paul McCartney, Bob from Hibbing, Andy Partridge (XTC), Colin Moulding (XTC), Neil Finn (Crowded House), Lyle Lovett, Leonard Cohen, Sting, Tom Waits, Burt Bacharach, Buck Owens, Carol King, Stevie Wonder, Prince, Emmylou Harris, on and on and on.
There are lots of newer songwriter listed here but I don't think any of them have the longevity or depth to be considered the greatest.
Now, back to the "Greatest" thing. How do you measure it? Is it popularity? Money made? # of covers? Radio play? Artistic merit? Reviews? Volume of work? If you take any of these metrics and compare I think Paul McCartney comes out close to the top at some point in his career. In the end I have to agree with Wheat. Macca wins!
Oh, and to those who say he's washed up go listen to his last couple albums. They are surprisingly good, even some of his best, check out Chaos and Creation in the Back Yard.
PS: To the person who suggested Bob Seeger - I'd rather eat glass than listen to Old Time Rock & Roll again. It completely negates anything good he has done or will ever do.
AMY!!!
I voted for Odis Redding!
Do you know who that is?
Don't pull the race card!
Can Weid Al Yankovic really be left out of this discussion?
He is one of the most recognizeable, consistent songwriters over the last 25 years.
17 albums in 25 years.
4 Gold Albums, 6 Platinum
7 Grammy Nominees - 2 Wins
Each of his albums can stand on their own.
He consistently has shown he can influence mass culture and entertain large audiences through out the world.
Say "Weird Al" anywhere in the free world, and who wouldn't know who you are talking about? There are kids in Papua New Guinea who can sing to you, "White & Nerdy". (Top 10 hit on the Billboard Hot 100).
Honestly, could Macca or Dylan claim the like?
Could they have penned the genius that is The Biggest Ball of Twine in Minnesota""
I think not,
nuf said!
What a marvelous discussion we had again this week trying to nail down
The Greatest living Songwriter!
As with all the questions that suggest there is ONE greatest, it might be said that the jury will always be out! However on counting the actual votes Macca did take the title!
"As to greatness, it speaks for itself." Bill Smith said or as Eric put it; "Each songwriter is free to write his/her own songs knowing that no one else can write them better." Megan Remtema was even blunter; "I'm not going to argue that any of these are the best of ALL TIME, because quite frankly it's a pointless argument - I mean in the end who cares, you listen to what you like and you like what you listen to."
"How do you measure greatness? There are so many talented songwriters out there and the greatest is going to be different for everyone of course."
Was how John put it towards the end of the discussion when he also agreed with me and even added that Macca's last two albums aren't bad!
But in my original post I said..." I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of song structure, but Dylan's seem to rely more on many plucked notes, from the folk tradition, whereas McCartney uses chords which a lot of pop music has become reliant upon. Like those of Burt Bacharach, every time I hear one of his songs, it just seems so perfectly formed."
How does that happen? In other words, what is it about the structure of the notes and the chords that works so well?
I blame myself for not stating the question more clearly, but what I was trying to get at really was, what technical quality makes them great, even if it's trying to explain why a songwriter is our own particular favorite. That's why in my follow up I tried to explain why David Gedge works for me;
"He has a unique style that seems to capture the way I think and speak better than anyone else."
Julia was trying to push us in that direction too;
" But I hear in your statement a search for a true songwriter, a composer (or as someone at The Current said, "a songcrafter") who has a particular skill & sensibility. Well, sure, Dylan's good for that mystery and search for transcendence".
Tib was good at elaborating upon his style; "Dylan engages with our society and culture and comments on it, he influences opinion, that's what makes him relevant, and what makes his songs more than pretty--they're powerful."
Christine did well pulling for Rufus Wainwright; "Rufus has the ability to combine so many styles and genres, it is nearly impossible to de-tangle all of his influences. His sense of metaphor used to describe personal, yet universal experiences is outstanding."
Christian Abrahamson added to the intrigue while defending Prince;
"I think the fact that he's written for people with different styles of music should be looked at too. I'm not saying he's the greatest but definitely should be considered one of the greats."
Susan Woehrle poetically explained her choice of Joni Mitchell;
"Her work is thoughtful and complex while somehow also being sweet and accessible. All of her songs are love songs, but some for places like Spain and California. Joni knows how to tell a story and tells all our stories; her songs are exotic and familiar. The bowl of oranges in A Chelsea Morning becomes much more, taking on significance in a sun-filled room at daybreak."
"My favorite display of his talents is "Beyond Belief", from "Imperial Bedroom", with its many internal rhymes and stream-of-consciousness feel." Wrote david in support of Elvis Costello and to explain his dismissal of Dylan..." Bob has never met a rhyming couplet he hasn't liked - he's thrown off plenty of real clunkers in his day. I'll give him that he revolutionized popular music (at the same point the Beatles were revolutionizing it as well), but musically he just doesn't seem to be expansive enough, at least not for me."
Although it didn't, count because Townes has passed, I applaud the way Curt described his style; "His lyrics are poetically spare; performer and listener fill in meanings that are alluded to, invited, but not demanded or forced. Despite their spare qualities, the songs are not obtuse: they drive right to the emotional and psychological heart of human experience."
Finally Gazzer made me break the rules when I played Radiohead on Thursday night just because he suggested them after writing;
"So for me, it comes down to those who assemble pop songs as painstakingly as Mozart and make it look as easy as making a pastrami sandwich." Encapsulating what I think of Macca and then perfectly summed up Bob with;
"He gets his own container. I think he's happier there anyway."
So perhaps we could revisit this discussion sometime in the future and really try to get to grips with the mechanics of what makes a great songcrafter, what about those chords and notes?! Perhaps that would need the input of songcrafters themselves. For us listeners, that might destroy the magical mystery that happens when it works for us, but we cannot put into words why?
On Monday, we'll let another discussion begin, if you see any movies this weekend, pay attention to the music, what's your favorite soundtrack?
Tune in 8p.m. Thursday night for the summation, a creation of programming
through your conversation.
If anyone with an open mind really wants to have this stupid myth that The Beatles are overrated debunked,than please get from your library,The Beatles Recording Sessions by Mark Lewisohn. It's an excellent very thorough detailed music diary of their amazing just 8 year recording career!
Many of their recording engineers and tape operators are interviewed in this book, including Geoff Emerick,Norman Smith who was one of their early recording engineers and who went on to produce Pink Floyd,Ken Scott who went on to work with David Bowie,and Alan Parsons who was a highly impressed Beatles fan who was one of their recording engineers on their last two albums,Abbey Road and Let It Be,and some of these recording engineers were innovative as well. They all describe just how truly innovative,creative and prolific The Beatles really were in the recording studio especially John Lennon and Paul McCartney.
A 15 year old guy said on a message board that he read this book and he's been loving The Beatles ever since! And a musician who reviewed this book on amazon.com said that as a musician he finds Mark Lewisohn's portrayal of The Beatles genuis,(especially that of John Lennon and Paul McCartney) to be completely thorough and accurate as well as really insightful.
And in an online interview in Bass Player Magazine from February 2005 with ,Wilco's Bass player John Stirratt he was asked which bass players have had the most impact on his playing. And the first thing he said is," Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his lines were absolutely melodic and inventive." Bass Player Magazine recently also voted Paul McCartney the # 5 Greatest Bass Player of All Time and # 2 creator of the best and most creative inventive bass lines!
On Yesfans.com they had the topic,Are The Beatles Overrated? going on from 2004-early 2007 and 75% of Yes fans voted the first option,NO Of Course Not How Dare You Question Their Greatness! Many Yes fans said that they couldn't even believe that this is a serious question and one said it's weird! Another Yes fan asked is Beethoven Overrated too then?
Infact one Yes fan said The Greatest Band Of All Time Overrated? Phuck No! Another Yes fan quoted him and said exactly what he just said! And one Yes fan had posted his own quotes from a year before saying he thought The Beatles are overrated,now he posted an emoticon holding a lame sign under his old quotes,and he said "Lame thats just what I was, how did I ever post that? I love The Beatles time changes everything I guess ."
Also there is an excellent online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross called,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time He explains that both John and Paul were excellent guitarists and both recorded great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks. He also says that many other musicians besides him recognize Paul as being one of the best bass players ever. He also says to say that John Lennon and Paul MCartney were two of the best singers in rock and roll is state the obvious.
He also said that George Harrison is underrated as a lead guitarist by many people with average or below average musical knowledge,or ability but most guitarists including Eric Clapton know better.He said George's strength is in melody pure and simple,it would be difficult not to find a George Harrison lead which is not melodic and that each of his leads has a strong beginning,a stronger middle and a well defined ending, and he said infact thats Eric's definition of what makes a guitar lead and that George continually developed new guitar sounds for each song.
And Bassist and music teacher Andrew Pouska lists Paul McCartney first on his website Houston Bass Lessons and he says,The impact The Beatles had on music history is stupendous,likewise the impact The Beatles bass player Paul McCartney had on rock bass was huge too,his basslines are very melodic and intelligent,one of the best.
And in an online interview with Eric Clapton called,Eric Clapton In His Own Words,he says John Lennon was a pretty good guitar player and he would have known because he played live in concert with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band album!
Also the site ItsOnlyRockNRoll.com reports that The Beatles won more than 20 prestigious Ivor Novello awards as singers and song writers from just 1963-1970 and as they said it's a remarkable acheivement! The Beatles also won several grammy awards for vocal performances and they are in both The Song Writers Hall of Fame and The Vocal Hall Of Fame. The Beatles also won an Academy award for the songs they wrote for their film Let It Be in 1970.
As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography,"So much has been said and written about The Beatles and their story is so mythic in it's sweep that it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliche's that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans.To state the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era,and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century,moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did,*and* the most popular at what they did Relentlessly imaginative, and expermintal The Beatles grabbed a hold of the international mass consciousness in 1964 and never let go for the next 6 years always staying ahead of the pack in terms of creativity but never losing their ability to communicate their increasingly sophisticated ideas to a mass audience.Their supremacy as rock icons remains unchallenged to this day decades after their breakup in 1970."
"Even when couching praise in specific terms, it's hard to convey the scope of The Beatles achievements in a mere paragraph or two. They synthesized all that was good about early rock &roll and changed it into something orginal and exciting. They established the prototype of the self-contained rock group that wrote and performed it's own material. As composers their craft and melodic inventiveness were second to none and key to the evolution of rock from it's blues R&B- based forms into a style that was far more eclectic but equally visceral. As vocalists John Lennon & Paul McCartney were both among the best and most expressive vocalists in rock;the groups harmonies were intricate and exhillarating."
"The Popularity Of The Beatles as a unit proved eternal. In part this is because the group's 1970 split effectively short-circuited the prospects of artistic decline;the body of work that was preserved was uniformly strong. However it's also because like any great works of art,The Beatles records carried an ageless magnificence that continues to captivate new generations of listeners. So it is that Beatles records continue to be heard on radio in heavy rotation,continue to sell in massive quanities and continue to be covered and quoted by rock and pop artists through the present day"
Bob Dylan actually gave the ultimate praise to Paul McCartney and John and George in a Spring 2007 Rolling Stone interview! He said he's in awe of Paul McCartney and that he's the only music artist he's in awe of! He said that Paul has the melody,he's got the rythym,he can sing the ballad really good,and he can play any instrument and that he's so darn effortless! Bob Dylan also said that George Harrison was a very good song writer in his own right and that he would have emerged big anyway but he was stuck behind John and Paul,and Bob said who wouldn't get stuck behind them! He also said there are no greater singers than John Lennon and Paul McCartney.
Even, Ozzy Osbourne said in an online 2002 Bender Magazine interview that The Beatles Are The Greatest Band To Ever Walk The Earth! He's been a huge fan since he's been a teenager and She Loves You is one of his favorite songs and he says not loving The Beatles is like not loving oxogen. The Rolling Stones were very good friends and fans of The Beatles and Mick Jagger was at 4 Beatles recording sessions and Keith Richards was at 2 of them with them! Also,The Beatles even wrote one of The Rolling Stones first hits with the song, I Wanna Be You're Man in late 1963.
And The Beatles Were *NEVER* a boy band at all not even in their 1963,1964,1965 and 1966 period. The Beatles started out playing 8 hours a night for two years in a row in the sleazy strip clubs of Hamburg Germany wearing tight black leather jackets and pants ,smoking,drinking,cursing and taking speed pills to stay awake and going to bed with a lot of young women groupies. There were a lot of rough German thugs that came into those clubs and if The Beatles didn't play good live they would have beaten the :!: out of them playing for 8 hours a night for two years,instead they became the most successful and popular group in Hamburg even with a lot of competition from other German and English groups playing in those clubs. The Beatles cleaned up image was a totally fake image created by their manager Brian Epstein which John hated and resented the most.And The Beatles also played successfully at The Cavern Club in Liverpool for several years before their manager Brian Epstein discovered them. too.
And John and George hated Beatlemania the most,and they had no life because of it,they had to live trapped in hotel rooms most of the time. And George Harrison said in the great Beatles Anthology video series that the fans gave their money and their screams and The Beatles kind of gave their nervous systems. He also said that the world used them as an excuse to go mad and then blamed it on them.And in a recent online interview with Roger Daltry he was asked if THe Who had screaming teenage fans and he said after Can't Explain they did. He said it was the era of the sreaming teenage girl fans,and that every group had one on the way up. Roger said that it was fun but the trouble for the performer when you're that young and inexperienced,you start to judge your performance by the amount they scream it's nonsense which is why Lennon gave up.Roger Daltry also says that their new manager in the mid 1960's changed their image to mods overnight,similar to The Beatles fake cleaned up image created by their manager.
As for the other inaccurate comments that some people say The Beatles didn't even stay together for 2 decades,well they didn't have to because they did about 50 years worth of innovative,creative,diverse,prolific great critically acclaimed popular songs and albums in just a remarkable 8 year recording career! The Beatles are in The Song Writing Hall Of Fame &The Vocal Hall of Fame.
And music critics as well as brilliant classical composer Leonard Bernstein called John & Paul the most brilliant song writers of the 20th century when they were still a band . As for The Beatles playing live,they sounded pretty good playing live considering that when they were playing in 1963,1964,1965,and 1966 the sound systems back then were very limited and primitive,they only had 100 watt amplifiers,no feedback monitors so they couldn't even hear themselves play and sing,yet they amazingly played in tune and in sync anyway,and at the August 1965 Shea Stadium concert which was the first big outdoor rock concert with over 55,000 fans,they were plugged into the PA system that they announce baseball games with plus the screaming crowds drowing out their great music! Can you imagine The Rolling Stones and The Who playing on these very limited primitive sound systems? They wouldn't have sounded much better! Thats why they gave up touring,because they were serious music artists,composers,and musicians and they wanted their great music to be heard and valued. It would be like Beethoven playing on these limited primitive sound systems and screaming crowds! Also they were now writing music that was too complex to reproduce on stage at that time. I
On the roof top concert in The Let It Be Film,they sounded great,because by January 1969 the sound systems had improved somewhat(although not anywhere near the 1970's,1980's,1990's and especially today's!) and they had changed and people had changed so there were no more screaming crowds so they could be heard.When I was a teenager I met 3 people who saw The Beatles in concert two of them were teachers who saw them in 1966 and he and she told me they were great,and my cousin saw them at age 16 at The Baltimore Colsieum in 1964 the year before I was born,and she said they were great. Former Kiss guitarist and grammy winning producer Bob Kulick who made the heavy metal Beatles tribute album Butchering The Beatles last year,says in an online interview,that he saw The Beatles at Shea Stadium in 1966 and that he could only make out pieces of the songs because of the screaming,but he could make out the songs Baby's In Black and Paperback Writer and he said they sounded amazing! He also calls The Beatles The Greatest Rock Band ever.
George Harrison at only age 14 would stay up playing his guitar until he got all of the chords exactly right and his fingers wer e bleeding! And One of The Beatles engineers Geoff Emerick says that in early 1966 when The Beatles were recording John's song I'm Only Sleeping,George Harrison played backwards guitar the most difficult way possible even though he could have taken an easy way,and it took him 6 hours just to do the guitar overdubs! He then made it doubly difficult by adding even more distorted gitars and Geoff says this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing! Eric Clapton said in a 1992 interview when he and George were asked what they admired about each other during their Japan tour,that George is a fantastic slide guitar player. He and George were very good friends and they obviously admired and respected each others guitar playing and George played guitar on Cream's song Badge.
Roger McGuinn of The Byrds says in a 2006 interview in the Folk Rock Magazine Sing Out that The Beatles used unusual folk rock chords in their early music in songs such as She Loves You and I Want To Hold Your Hand which was never used in pop rock before and that they invented folk rock without even knowing it. He started to play a 12 string guitar after he saw and heard George Harrison playing one in The Beatles great film A Hard Day's Night in early 1964. He also says he hung out with The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and he played many Beatles songs in the early-mid 1960's at the Troubadour club.
In an online Eric Clapton interview called,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that John Lennon was a pretty good guitar player and he would have known since he played live in concert with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band! On an excellent site called,The Evolution Of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennis Alstrand Stanley Clarke,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,Sting,George Martin,and John Lennon are all quoted saying what a great,melodic,influential bass guitar player Paul McCartney has always been! The 1992 Rolling Stone Album Guide calls Paul a remarkable bass player and rightfully calls John & Paul the 2 greatest song writers in rock history! Both Phil Collins and Max Weinberg both Beatles fans and both praise Ringo's drumming and Phil Collins says that Ringo's great drumming on A Day In The Life can't even be repeated even by him!
Also on Rankopedia The Beatles are # 1 Greatest Rock Band,# 1 Greatest Most Innovative Rock Band,John & Paul are # 1 Greatest Rock Song Writers,John & Paul are on The Greatest Rock Male Vocalist list,and Paul McCartney is # 2 after John Enwistle as Greatest Rock Bass Players,John Paul Jones is # 6,and Bill Wynman is # 20! And on Digitaldreamdoor where many musicians post,The Beatles are # 1 Greatest Rock Artists,John &Paul are # 1 Greatest Rock Song Writers,they are both on The Greatest Rock Male Vocalists list,and Paul McCartney is # 8 out of 100 Greatest Rock Bass Players,John Paul Jones is # 21,and Bill Wynman is # 95! George Harrison is # 54 On The Greatest Rock Guitarists out of over 100.
And there are many music professors teaching music courses at good universities on the brilliance of The Beatles especially of John &Paul,including by award winning music professor and composer Dr.Glen Gass,who has been teaching a course on The Beatles and rock music at Indiana University since 1982. On his web site for his course it says the main purpose of this course is to get students to have a better appreciation of this extraordinary group and their remarkable recordings. Dr.Gary Kendal's Beatles course is the most requested course at North Western University. And a music professor by the last name of Heinonen teaches a Beatles course at JYVASKYLA University in Finland,and the university of California also teaches a Beatles course etc.
Also check out Keno's Classic Rock n Roll Site he also runs a Rolling Stones & John Lennon fan site. And he made a Top 10 List and voted and the fans voted. He voted John &Paul # 2 after Bob Dylan as Greatest Rock Song Writers,the fans voted them # 1! He voted Paul McCartney # 2 after John Entwistle as Greatest Rock Bass Player,the fans voted Paul # 3. He voted John Lennon # 2 after Keith Richards as Greatest Rock Rhythm Guitarist,and the fans voted John in a tie with Jimi Hendrix and Brian Jones at # 4 ! He voted John Lennon # 1 in a tie with Elvis as Greatest Male Rock Vocalist and the fans voted John # 1,he voted Paul # 6 and the fans voted him # 7. Ken says Darn The Beatles were one great group in his review of The Beatles album 1967-1970,and he also says that John on Get Back showed why he should have played lead guitar more often because he did such a good job! He also said that John on their hard rocking great 1968 single Revolution,played one of the first and best acid guitar parts.And he also said that John played a pretty good slide guitar on George's For Your Blue. And he says in his review of The Beatles 1962-1966,that if you don't love or at least like The Beatles and their music than you are not a true rock fan and more than likely will never get it.
And Brian Wilson said on a 1995 Nightline TV Beatles tribute show,that Sgt.Pepper is the single greatest album he ever heard,and he played With A Little Help From Friends on the piano and he said I just love this song. He also said he thinks John Lennon & Paul McCartney were the 2 greatest song writers of the 20th century! He also said when he first heard The Beatles great 1965 album Rubber Soul,that he was blown away by it,he said all of the songs flowed together and it was pop music but folk rock at the same time,and this is what he couldn't believe. He said this inspired him to make Pet Sounds. Elton John said in a 1991 CBS morning news show,when he was asked who he musically admires,he said You can talk about your Rogers & Hammerstein but for the quality of quanity songs that Lennon & McCartney did in that short period of time,they were the 2 greatest song writers of the 20th century. Most music artists want to believe and want the public to believe that *their* the greatest so when they say other music artists are the greatest it really means a lot!
The Beatles are also the most covered music artists of all time with everyone from Motown,jazz,classical,and even heavy metal music recording their great diverse music! And in 2001 VH1 had a panel of well known musicans and music critcs,that voted The Beatles The Greatest Rock Band Ever,and in 2004 Rolling Stone did the same thing and several people said on message boards that Rolling Stone had a recent pael poll like this and The Beatles were voted # 1 again and for darn great reasons too! Nobody created as much innovative,creative,quality,critically acclaimed,popular diverse songs and albums in such a short amazing period of time as The Beatles and thats why most people know that The Beatles Are The Greatest Rock Band That Ever Was Or Will Be!
Oh and A Day's Night is a great pop rock album!! And even Bob Dylan said decades ago about The Beatles early music,that their chords were outrageous,and the harmonies were wonderful and they were doing things in music that nobody had done before,and music critics of The London Times such as William Mann were praising their interesting and unusual chords that they used even in early songs like She Loves You &I Want To Hold Your Hand. Which were not as simple as they seemed and had clever subtleties in them.Infact Bob Dylan said in a Rolling Stone interview this Spring that he's in awe of Paul McCartney and he said he's the only one he's in awe of. He said that Paul has the melody,he has the rhthym and he can sing the ballad very good,and he can play any instrument. He also said there were no better singers than John Lennon &Paul McCartney and he said if George wasn't stuck in the shadow behind John & Paul and he said who wouldn't get stuck,he would have emerged as a great song writer in his own right anyway.
In December 1963 London Sunday Times music critic Richard Buckle called John Lennon and Paul McCartney the 2 greatest composers since Beethoven after they composed music for a ballet called,Mods and Rockers.
And by the way I have read some people saying on message boards that they don't think The Rolling Stones were the best technical musicians,and many even some fans have said they haven't done anything good in 35 years, and that their overrated and I have also found many people saying they hate or don't like The Rolling Stones and many people say the only Rolling Stones song they like is Paint It Black! Oh and by the way,in every major poll of The Beatles vs The Rolling Stones,The Beatles always win as # 1 even on sites and message boards that are not Beatles fan sites!
And when we look at the solo career comparison of Mick Jagger's and Keith Richards solo careers with John,Paul &George's,the facts are John Lennon's first brilliant solo album,and his second great album Imagine are rightfully critically acclaimed, and I love John's Walls & Bridges album and Paul McCartney's first solo album McCartney is very good,and he played every instrument all by himself at age 27,and he played so many different instruments great! Wings 1975 Venus & Mars is a great rock album too. And he and Denny Laine are the only musicians on Paul's great 1973 Band On The Run album,which is critically acclaimed and popular,and he played every instrument by himself again on McCartney 2 in 1979,and most of the instruments on his 1997 Flaming Pie album,and his 2 recent acclaimed popular albums,Chaos And Creation In The Backyard,and Memory Almost Full.
.And John Paul Jones,David Gilmore,John Bonham &Pete Townsend all played on 2 songs with Paul and Wings on the last Wings album Back To The Egg, in 1979,and they played in the last Wings concert too in December 1979. You know I have found over 50 former Beatles haters on many message boards and web sites that are now HUGE Beatles fans and many say they are now their favorite band and that they were the Greatest Band Ever. I didn't communicate with these people but they said in their posts that they had a lot of inaccurate misperceptions of The Beatles and they hadn't even heard most of The Beatles great songs and albums! Most people don't hate The Beatles in the first place,most people of all ages all around the world love or at least like their music,but it's really something for former haters to turn into big fans and it just goes to show how Great The Beatles music is!!
Another thing I want to debunk is that many people have a misperception that The Beatles were a pop band and not a rock band.But this is not true at all,The Beatles were mostly a great innovative,creative,diverse prolific *ROCK* band *not* a "pop" band! John Lennon always aid he just really loved rock n roll and he and Paul wrote plenty of great rock n roll in The Beatles and in their early solo careers! It really would have been news to John that he wasn't the founder and leader of a true rock band!
The Beach Boys were a true pop band because all of their hits were that beach surfing sound. Even The early Beatles had a harder electric guitar sound than The Beach Boys and I have never heard a Beach Boys song played on classic rock stations only oldies stations, But many classic rock stations still play The Beatles! And The Beatles are rightfully categorized as a *rock* band by most rock and music critics and rock journalists,and Rock On The Net says few could argue that one of the best if not the best rock groups was The Beatles. And The Wikipedia the free online encyclopedia as well as the Websters College 2000 Dictionary defines The Beatles as a British Rock Group. And most record stores classify The Beatles correctly as the rock band they were.And a guy on the web site Votenumber1.com said of course The Beatles were a great rock group he said they were the greatest rock group ever and he said he can name about 100 great rock Beatles songs!
And I and many people understandably feel that John Lennon had the best rock voices ever! George Martin said John's voice was one of the best he ever heard,and in May 1967 when The Beatles were recording their song,Baby You're A Rich Man,two recording engineers said they were always fascinated with the sound of John Lennon's voice,and they always wanted to record it live and when they heard him singing this song live they said they couldn't believe how great his voice was and that anyone could sing that well live.
The Beatles wrote many great rock songs that were pretty rocking for the time,John's great song You Can't Do That from early 1964 which he played lead guitar on for the first time,Paul's great blues rocker,She's A Woman from late 1964,John's I Feel Fine from late 1964, with the first use of feedback guitar,and one of the first songs to have a great guitar riff,a year before The Rolling Stone's Satisfaction came out,Paul's screaming hard rocker especially for 1965,I'm Down which they played even louder and more screaming at the August 1965 Shea Stadium concert, and as The All Music Guide says I'm Down was one of The Beatles most frantic rockers,and they said they did a really wild performance of this at The Shea Stadium concert. The All Music Guide also says The Beatles showed they could rock really really hard with their early songs,John's I Feel Fine,Paul's She's A Woman,and the peerless I'm Down.
Plus Day Tripper,Paperback Writer,She Said She Said,And You're Bird Can Sing, Taxman,all with heavy electric guitar sounds,John's 1968 hard rocking single Revolution,Yer Blues,Birthday,Back In The USSR,While My Guitar Gently Weeps,Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me &My Monkey,Get Back,He Bulldog,Polythene Pam,She Came In Through The Bathroom Window plus Paul's Helter Skeklter which as many people have pointed out was the first heavy metal songs,plus John's I Want You She's So Heavy on Abbey Road which many people have also pointed out was one of the first heavy metal songs,plus his great rocker Come Together,Paul's Oh Darling,You Never Give Me Your Money,and the hard rocking jam of Paul,George,and John on the song The End,etc!! So anyone saying THe Beatles were not a rock band You Are Wrong!!
The Rolling Stones were very good friends and fans of The Beatles and Mick Jagger was at 4 Beatles recording sessions and Keith Richards was at 2 of them with them! The Beatles even wrote one of The Rolling Stones first hits with the song,I Wanna Be You're Man in late 1963.
Mick Jagger was such a big Beatles fan that when The Beatles were recording their song,Baby You're A Rich Man in May 1967,he came there and stood on the sidelines just to watch and listen to them record it and his name was on the tape box because he likely sang at the end verses.
The Rolling Stones could also be considered a pop band since they too were very popular,had many hit songs and albums and some of their songs could be classified as pop,Ruby Tuesday,Angie,She's A Rainbow,Lady Jane,As Tears Go By,Waiting On A Friend, the bad imitation of disco songs Miss You and Emotional Rescue, their whole Sgt.Pepper rip off Their Satanic Majesties Request and they also put out many greatest hits albums.
And I have read many people on music boards saying that Robert Plant's lyrics are simple,ordinary and like a horny teenage boy wrote them. And many people say Led Zeppelin stole a lot from old blues songs.
Another thing I want to point out is that Paul McCartney's father Jim McCartney was a naturally musically talented self taught accomplished jazz pianist and the leader of his own jazz band called,Jim Mac's Band and they were popular in clubs in the 1930's. But his father wasn't a poet,he wrote some of his own instrumental jazz music and Paul and Wings would record one of his father's old jazz songs called,Walking In The Park With Eloise which was included on the 1976 Wings At The Speed of Sound album.
So Paul inherited his father's natural *musical* talent to the extreme! Paul can and has written very good lyrics but he often doesn't but he doesn't have to because even when his lyrics were very good that is not what is great about his songs it's always his *music*. He's like a Beethoven of rock who can also sometimes write great lyrics. And Beethoven and Mozart didn't write any lyrics!
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