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Love Boat, Jump the Shark... or Hall of Fame?
Posted at 11:00 AM on October 31, 2006
by Hans Eisenbeis
(22 Comments)
Just in time to support our nomination of Patti Smith for last week's Love Boat of Alt-Rock: The terminally irrelevant Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame has put Our Lady of Perpetual Celebrity on this year's ballot.
Not to be mean about it, but can you name more than two Patti Smith songs that you actually hum to yourself of a sunny October day? (No cheating!) Prove it, in the comments.
Photo: Getty Images
Comments (22)
OK, I know I'm ignorant. But before the inevitable and deserved public shaming begins, let me try to put a more charitable spin on this: How many managers, batboys, umpires, coaches, team owners, and wives should be included in the baseball hall of fame? Shouldn't every nominee have, at some point in their life, an actual hit or RBI?
OK, now sockitomee...
I'll give you three: Dancing Barefoot, Frederick & Gone Again.
Now, git workin' and please find more separated at births. Those are pure comedy.
The only one I can remember is "goodbye to you".
hansy.... again, you rile my anger!
"horses" rules. totally. ms. smith's versions of "hey joe" and "gloria" are classics, (yes, i know, covers...) and her collaboration with the boss on "because the night" is one of my fave all time songs. she might not be a fantastic song WRITER, but you have got to admit she's an incredible performer and artist and has had a LOT of influence on punk / riotgrrrl / underground / spoken word / alt music movements for a generation now. come on, there are far more egregious errors in the RRHF, no?
See, now I HATE making you mad Ali, but here I go again. I mean, I would argue that Patti's influence is greatly overrated. Or rather, overstated. Everyone knows who she is, everyone CALLS her an important infleunce, not many people can even name her albums much less any memorable original compositions. I'm not saying she doesn;t matter, I'm just saying she's one of those names that gets dropped a A LOT, and I'm not sure exactly why. Again: Not to say she hasn't worked hard for the last 40 years or whatever. And art is important. But at some point successful artists can point to an audience--an audience BEYOND hipsters and know-it-alls and other artists.
Great work if you can get it, but in these democratic, web-enabled times, you gotta actually deliver on your "promise" to convince the kids.
Perhaps Patti should be admitted to the RRHF in the non-performers category? I'd be cool with that.
does "E-Bow the Letter" count?
Hans, the Baseball Hall of Fame (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/) has, indeed, inducted managers, umpires and team owners. As for batboys and player wives, well, they hardly compare to Patti Smith's stature.
She was an integral fixture in the 70's NYC punk scene. Current and future Rock and Roll Hall of Famers like the Pretenders, Sonic Youth and Television all acknowldege her influence. I'm not sure what more you want.
If you don't like her music, that's fine. I'm not a big fan of Bob Seger but I get why he's in the Hall.
And her version of "Gloria" is so radical it's almost not even a cover. That is not Van Morrison's "Gloria!"
BTW, can you name a single Clyde McPhatter song? (http://www.rockhall.com/hof/inductee.asp?id=152)
No, me neither.
P.S. Sorry, I don't know how to properly link. ;)
Yeah, until Tony pointed it out, I missed Hans' whole baseball analogy. If baseball managers shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, this also means non-musicians are banned from the RnRHoF. This means that Alan Freed, Sam Phillips, Lieber & Stoller, Phil Spector, Berry Gordy Jr., Goffin & King, Holland/Dozier/Holland, George Martin, and Clive Davis are apparently banished from the Hall of Fame too. Q.E.D.
Certainly. So many to choose from, but to give you three: "Frederick", "Gloria", and "Wing" {from Gone Again and also the live v.}...Wing has got to be one of the most depthful, tear~jerking tracks written ever. "It was {and is} beautiful...Mmmm Mmm Mmmm".
Just to amplify the fact that I'M the hater here--playing devil's advocate, you know--I say ~show me the influence~, don't tell me.
Great that Sonic Youth, Television, et al. celebrate Patti as an influence. But it's just downtown namedropping if you can't actually trace any original contribution that got picked up and twisted by someone else. Hemingway learned how to write short, tight-fisted sentences from Knut Hamsun. What was Patti's great insight and contribution?
Maybe Patti's influence is in the negative: She was the first woman to successfully escape the bondage of gender in pop music performance, and bring "poetry" to the stage? (Well, you could make that argument about Odetta, or Joan Baez, or... or... or...)
Oh--and there IS a whole "non-performers" category at the Hall of Fame (wherein most of Mac's inductees reside)... which is why I very provocatively suggested that I'd be OK with Patti being inducted there.
Don't recall who the nominees are in that dept. this year.
This is not the first time Patti Smith has been a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame nominee. And, she is "WAY OVERDUE" for induction. As for hummable songs by Patti, would you really want one from her?! Her music is about poetry...not singing in the shower! Just ask Shirley Manson, or, the dozens of other female rockers that have been influenced by Patti!
Hans, talk about name-dropping! And a Nazi sympathizer, no less!
Look, you can trace a direct line (musically, lyrically, vocally) from Patti Smith to people like Polly Jean Harvey, Shirley Manson (cited above), Kristin Hersh, Mary Lou Lord, etc etc. Her inclusion in the Hall seems (to paraphrase George Tenet, if I may drop a political name!) like a slam dunk to me, Mr. President!
Well, old Knut went a little crazy in his twilight years, it's true--and the Norwegians have never forgiven him for it! My point, though, was to identify a specific stylistic innovation that migrated from one artist to another. (With not a lot of prestige for namedropping factored in, given that he WAS a crazy old man.) I'm thinking of how Thom Yorke listened to Jeff Buckley's "Grace" and, floored by the sound, fashioned his voice after Buckley's. Then Travis picked up on that and married it to a more pure Scotch-pop sensibility; then Coldplay ripped off the sound and turned into top-40 mush; and then Snow Patrol added five cups of sugar, until everybody got a stomach ache. Jeff Buckley goes into the Hall of Fame (special bonus, he's DEAD!) --everybody wins!
I'm still not satisfied with the sloppy geneology I'm seeing here... So like being a woman and, uh, singing atonally? Is that the thread? Nina Simone did that pretty well. Even Nico did that. Marianne Faithful. "Inpsiration and influence" is too often a lazy way of saying "I get my merit badges for listening to the cool stuff, and I can prove it by dropping the right names."
(You know I'm still playing devil's advocate here, right? Cuz I'm feeling naughty this week...)
Travis??? Snow Patrol??? Radiohead will get in the Hall ahead of Buckley, assuming he's even seriously considered. He won't be eligible til 2019 anyway, and much as I love "Grace," getting into the Hall essentially on the strength of a single album would seem to be unlikely, dead or not.
Getting back to the baseball analogy, it would be akin to allowing Brady Anderson of the Baltimore Orioles into the Hall of Fame because he hit 50 home runs in 1996. You have to consider the whole career.
OK---back to the original question (this is fun!). A young Chrissy Hynde, inspired by Patti Smith's lyricism and vocal delivery, leaves Ohio (also taking with her the Midwest punk and post-punk guitar sounds of Pere Ubu and MC5) for England and forms The Pretenders, a band with a more infectious pop sensibility. Pixies take that pop sensibility and turn it on its head in the mid-late 80's, with a more dissonant and in your-face style (check Surfer Rosa). They help set the stage for the early 90's alt-rock phenomenon. Among this crowd are rockers like Belly, Liz Phair and PJ Harvey, whose voice sounds remarkably like Patti Smith.
Sounds like a strong thread to me.
Hmmm.... seems like you might have to rethink earlier statements, H. I think T. Lo and others above have quite accurately pointed out the influence she has had. I disagree that you have to be able to hear direct connections to acknowlege influence. It is often the POINT of the person and not their actual sound / style that is emulated. Patti (among a select few others) was a bold, strong woman who defied the norms of the day to be sexual and sexy in a very androgynous way. Don't like her music? Fine, taste is subjective. But don't discount her influence on a generation of women; trust me, she's a role model for many performers, poets, singers, song writers, etc that grew up not fitting a particular mold and desperate for something real, gritty, raw, sexy, powerful, and true.
Now on to Yoko Ono. ;)
Yeah, I missed the whole Yoko Ono thing. I would say......yes! If the Hall wants more credibility (and, granted, it hasn't been around very long; what, early 80's?) it's got to stretch its wings so it doesn't wind up like the Grammys, if it hasn't already.
T. Lo and Ali: I yield on Patti. I'm not entirely convinced, but you finally make a convincing case.
But Yoko? Seriously?!
OK, in that case maybe we should reframe the question: Can you think of anyone--anyone at all, say like Black Oak Arkansas--who SHOULDN'T be in the RNR Hall of Fame?
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning Tony. The Hall could ensure its credibility by making its standards as low (OK, as ~inclusive~) as possible?
"Credibility." That sort of begs the question, right? Perhaps we should petition them to change the name to "Rock N Roll Hall of Celebrity." I'd be OK with that, too.
Hmmmm....the case is convincing but you aren't convinced. Okaaaay. Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water...
If I were running the place (God help us!) I wouldn't let in just any ol' body. As stated above, I don't think Jeff Buckley cuts it. But I do think a more serious case could be made for Yoko Ono. Can I make it? I dunno. Maybe when I've had more coffee! ; )
Perhaps a Current field trip to Cleveland to spend a weekend at the Hall might be enlightening. I know....It's a feeble and completely unrealistic attempt to have an employer-financed junket. Damn.....
Oh, and I wouldn't let Barry Manilow in under any condition!
"Even nowwwwwww...."
well, if you exclude Barry on grounds that he emphatically does NOT rock, I think you must apply the same logic to Yoko. Artistically important? Maybe (on a long, long, long shot and being EXTREMELY charitable). Big hit maker? Duh: no. Rock? Absolutely not.
And shouldn't Buckley be considered MORE viable than Yoko on the basis of "influence" ? Personally, I don't care one way or the other--I never much liked Buckley. But of all the rock n roll bands I've interviewed over the years, his name came up more than any other--even Nick Drake! Weird, I know.
I am laughing hysterically I can barely write this! Yoko Ono has THE WORST Voice I have ever heard on a mainstream recording; I could tell this when I was nine-I giggled with my friends about it then.
You cannot be serious in your suggestion that she be a candidate. One cannot be inducted into the Hall of Fame on someone else's- namely Yoko's husband John's coat tails.
My God don't you think you have to have some personal contribution other than being the wife of an extraordinary rock icon to be inducted? How old are you? Maybe Pamela Anderson should be inducted too and Heather Locklear they have had profound effects on pop culture.
Personally I don't think Yoko Ono contributed anything but heinous and disharmonious vocals to otherwise genius albums created by her husband John Lennon.
She is an extremely manipulative woman by most accounts, contributing to the break up of a marriage-Lennon's first and the Beatles.
What merits Yoko Ono to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame?
Yoko Ono's "art" as someone referred to it was not inspired or inspiring either; she has no talent; it was bad performance art of the 70's.
The only thing Yoko Ono possesses a clear talent for is self-promotion like Madonna.
I am laughing at the person who suggested her-have you actually heard a John Lennon album with her contribution-her voice on it?
Listen to Starting Over and revise your statement. We're sitting here cracking up !
By the way "Goodbye to you" is patty smythe-pop one hit wonder. You are so funny!
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